SGU 10-Hour Show Part 6

SGU 10-Hour Show
2nd May 2015
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SGU 511                      SGU 512
Skeptical Rogues
S: Steven Novella
B: Bob Novella
J: Jay Novella
E: Evan Bernstein
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Orthorexia Nervosa continued: (0:00)

Note: This page is not transcribed, but it has been summarized, and statements of the rogues has been paraphrased in order to provide limited searchability. Text is in gray to distinguish it from normal transcription.

J: even though I do intellectually understand it, emotionally, it's a big thing. It's connected to modifying fetuses. We're going to change people based on this technology.

S: People had that reaction to test tube babies. It was just not natural. But if you understand the science, you know that putting genes from bacteria into corn is not a big deal. Meanwhile, fish and tomatoes already share a lot of their genes. They're just genes.

E: If we had a more scientifically illiterate population, it might be better.

S: That quest for pure can become an obsession.

J: It's interesting how we can slip into these mind frames. In the last five years, I've developed a hand-washing habit, and I'm doing it too much now.

B: How often?

J: I can wash my hands four or five times in ten minutes! I change the baby's diaper, I have to wash my hands. I get juice on my hands, I wash again. I'm doing it too much. I'm obsessing about it. I question how many times did I prevent myself from getting sick?

S: If you obsessively wash your hands, you will prevent the spread of communicable diseases. If you're doing it all the time, some people have raised the possibility that you may deprive your immune system of a work out. But I reserve my judgment on that.

J: We have to witness my own behavior.

E: I minimize my use of door handles.

J: Like, the bathroom door, at work. I never touch that.

S: To be clean, you're supposed to not touch anything once you've washed your hands.

B: If could train yourself not to touch your face a lot.

S: What's the best place for people to have questions? Some people are better on YouTube. ... Now, we're going to Joseph Shwartz

Interview with Joseph Shwartz: (6:14)

S: Jo, welcome to The Skeptic's Guide.

JS: Hi.

S: So, you haven't been on the show before. You are the Canadian me.

JS: Well, that's a compliment!

S: You are an activist injecting science and rationality into medical issues. Why don't you tell us your credentials?

JS: My degree is in Chemistry at McGill University. Sixteen years ago, the university decided there's so much poor scientific information that we need to do something about it. They created the Office for Science in Society. We disseminate scientific unbiased information. We have a weekly radio show every Sunday at 3:00 Eastern time. I've written fifteen books. I've done a thousand TV appearances, including on the Canadian Discovery Channel.
There is always the question of what is the impact? If you do nothing, you will get nowhere. It sometimes feel like swimming up Niagara Falls because of the quantity of pseudoscience out there.

S: Yeah, what if there was no skeptic's movement? It wouldn't be better.

JS: There are people who are skeptical who know what the truth is. On the other extreme there are people whose minds are made up like creationists. But in the middle, you have people who don't know. We have ten thousand journals these days. It's impossible to keep up with even a sliver of that information.
So there, we have a chance of swaying them by giving them scientific information. You can appreciate music without being able to play it. Same thing with science. You don't have to be a scientist to get it.

S: The more you understand though, the more you can appreciate it.

JS: I support science at an early level. I go to schools and speak to the students, and I emphasize how we know what we know. We rely on the peer-reviewed literature. What the peer-review process is? It can bite us, as we know with Andrew Wakefield. Because the peers do not redo the work. This is something important to get across to the public. Why is something in a journal more reliable than something from the Food Babe.

S: I agreed that there's so many studies coming out, and they are difficult to understand. There is a pyramid where information goes through many layers before it gets to the public layer. You have experts at the top, but you need people who understand it who can translate it and can bring it to the next layer. You office is exactly what universities should be doing.

JS: One problem we face is that not all peer-reviewed literature is not the same quality. Some are great, some are poor, most are mediocre. Now, it's possible to cherry-pick data any way you want. When journalists get into this game, they interview both sides, and write a report that implies that the opinions are equal weight. One side has most of the science behind it, the other has a few cranks. You see this in global warming.

We struggle with this all of the time. There is information out there, but it isn't representative of the totality of the literature. Science progresses by consensus and small steps. We're up against charmers like the Food Babe. She has come out of nowhere with zero scientific background. But all of a sudden, she has become the savior who is going to save us from scientists and medical doctors who are trying to kill us, and she has all of the answers.

She's a typical example of what you were talking about eating pure. If you follow her instructions, you don't have to worry about disease. She has a million followers on Facebook. She's up with Oz, and Oz at least has a scientific background.

S: If you push things in a marketing way, you can do well.

JS: She is attractive, and she gets on all of the talk shows. There was an issue a few years ago of getting sugar out of Pepsi. Now they want to go back to “natural” sugar. There was an article in USA today, and they go to the Food Babe as their expert. They don't to Harvard School of public health, they go to the Food Babe, who couldn't tell you the difference between fat and sugar.

E: Is she well recognized in Canada as the US?

JS: She is, unfortunately, probably, thanks a lot to me. I've talked about her so much that I've probably introduced people to her. At first I didn't think much about Facebook, but eventually I got into it, and now I see it's a great way to get information out there. Now I hear a lot of things that I otherwise might not hear.

S: I agree. We've been putting a lot of effort into our own Facebook page. We've got three quarters of a million followers. I agree about false balance. Journalists go to it by default, which is getting worse because of journalism infrastructure. The BBC is instructing their journalists to not go to false balance. I think global warming has been driving it. Skeptics pointing out that that's the problem is helping.

JS: The BBC does an excellent job. In Canada, we have the CBC. They have no funding from vested interests. Just a few weeks ago, they gave me a chance to debate a professor who is studying homeopathy. I asked her why on Earth she was studying it. This is at the University of Toronto. We sent a letter signed by scientists around the world. You should be able to rationalize what you're doing.

So the CBC gave me a chance to debate her. It's nice that they do that. I also do these things on my own radio show. I do invite people who oppose my views. I have invited the Food Babe on numerous occasions. She monitors my Facebook page and posts videos of what she has seen there. We would have a proper scientific discussion.
If you don't agree with this lady, she bans you from her Facebook page. I have tried to explain to her that this is not how science works. So far this has fallen on deaf ears. I think she knows she can't hold her own in a debate. It's strange that she can just stand there. It's the same with Dr. Oz. He could be doing such good things. He sometimes does.

They build gigantic colons and hearts, and then he will be talking to the dead. How does that jibe with anything scientific?

E: People don't know the difference between the two.

S: Bill Nye got famous without mixing pseudoscience with science. After I went on Dr. Oz, people told me that they separate it out.

JS: The seductive nonsense is tempting. It's entertaining. 

S: I think Oz is more vulnerable because he's an academic, so his colleagues try to hold him accountable for giving out bad advice on his show. He's doing a bad job of defending himself.

JS: His defense was pathetic because it was just a bunch of ad hominems. I disagreed with the scientists sending that letter though because it got him more listeners. His reaction to that was pathetic.

S: He said they're shills, and they're suppressing my freedom of speech.

JS: No one is trying to suppress his speech. They were just pointing out that his speech is shit. He has charm and he speaks well, but I think there are chinks in his armor. Mike Adams of Natural Health is just as bad. He has no background, like the Food Babe, but he launches venomous attacks.

S: If you defend GMO, he calls you a nazi. He tells his readers it would be justifiable to murder GMO proponents.

JS: He was talking analyses of supplements, and he has no idea what he's talking about. He is making loads of money on the ads he has on Natural News. He also sells every supplement.

S: But we're the shills. They're sell stuff, but we're the shills. It can be maddening. Despite their money, funding, and charisma, I think the truth has power to it. We're just constantly pushing that rock up the hill.

JS: I don't think we can ever win the war against pseudoscience, but we can win battles, and that's important. I think the biggest response has been to books, because that's permanent. Something on TV, that's temporary. In my books, I have emphasized relatively short segments. People don't read novels. So you don't have to read my whole book cover to cover.

My latest book is Monkeys, Myths, and Molecules. It's all the way from Smart Meters to GMO's, to controversies about Bishenol A. I mix in history with current knowledge, and get the message across that science is interesting. You can present science in a way that people can understand.

S: Thank you for joining us.

JS: Thanks very much, and happy anniversary guys.

''(Interview ends)''

Interview with Rebecca Watson (34:34)

J: Hey Steve, Rebecca wants in.

S: Non-scheduled interview.

E: In the meantime, May 2nd is Baby Day, Beer Pong Day, Bladder Cancer Awareness Day, Global Marijuana March Day, Join Hands Day, the Kentucky Derby, National Home Brew Day, National Play Your Ukelele, Scrapbooking Day, National Truffle Day, Scurvy Awareness Day, World Naked Gardening Day, and World Tuna Day.

B: How do you get an official day?

E: United Nations? ... That was the perfect ninety second filler piece.

R: Hello.

J: Rebecca!

R: How's it going?

S: You changed your hair color again.

E: Looks like you've been getting a lot of sun.

R: Yeah, I miss the seven feet of snow. It was nice to miss that. Now I live where it's sunny every day. I just came back from my run.

J: It's been four months since we've broken up. What have you been doing?

R: I've been busy! I've ramped up my YouTube channel. I'm doing two videos per week. I'm writing a book now. Doing Quiz-o-tron. It's been good.

J: We've missed you.

R: Was it terrible? If only Rebecca had been here! I heard you guys did a good job without me.

J: What's the book about?

R: I've only just started it. I can't say too much. It's going to be focused on women in atheism. I figured for my first book, I'll do something I know a lot about. It's early yet. Don't get excited.

J: Are you planning on having something done within a year?

R: I'm very goal oriented. I should have a book-length thing by June, but then there's editing and putting it together.
Behind me is my record collection.

J: I see pictures on Facebook, and you're having too much of a good life now, and I hate you.

R: I know, I have the best life. I don't want to rub it in, but I do. So this is my balcony.

E: Oh, leaves!

R: There's a live basil plant, a dead basil plant. Over there is my book shelf, my unicorn head, and my guitar. That's like, a divider because Adam works over there. This is my workspace.

''(Rogues can be seen on her computer)''

J: Watch out! Don't do an infinity! No! Not that again!

R: I can't tour the rest of the apartment because Adam is sleeping.

S: I broke up their three marriages ''(Points at Bob, Jay, and Evan)''

E: You were the focal point, no doubt about it.

R: I broke up. Apparently there's a bit of a theme. I have now been with Adam twice as long as I was married.

S: Rebecca, don't you miss the Skeptilair.

R: Is that a Batleth.

J: We moved the set in Steve's basement. We're gonna be doing this from time to time.

R: I should get my own backdrop, like a green screen so I can keep up. I like the new set, well done. 

J: You can see how technologically advance we have become.

R: Yeah, you guys haven't cut out once.

B: We started on time.

R: Evan is out of focus. Other than that, it looks good. Who is behind the camera?

S: A team of experts headed by Phil Hudson.

J: Rebecca, we really miss you.

R: I miss you guys too, but I'm glad to see you're doing okay.

J: I'm happy for you. You're doing well. You could have been beer-laden. Oh, hey, there's a cat!

R: Brendon come here.

J: He responds?

R: Yeah, he's basically a dog.

J: I've been trying to get you to show us your pussy, and it took this long.

B: Oh my god!

J: How could I not go there?

''(Rebecca is visibly speechless)''
S: Maturity?

R: I'm glad that nothing has changed. 

S: So, what else can we talk about?

J: Rebecca, if I don't destroy Steve's career, I'm not trying hard enough.

B: Did you see the Avengers sequel?

R: No, I made cupcakes instead. I'm not a huge fan of crowds in theaters, but I like seeing things like that in the midnight screening.

J: I want to see it on an iMax 3D.

R: Working from home, you can just go during the day. Anything else? What do you got?

S: We do have another interview. But this was awesome?

R: Sorry it was last minute. Literally, none of us have changed.

J: Rebecca, we love and miss you.

R: I love and miss you too.

B: Goodbye!

''(Interview ends)''

B: I must eat.

J: So Dean is ready to go. Ev, you might as well move in a little. It was really good to see Rebecca.

Interview with Dean Cameron: (51:00)

D: Hello?

J: Hello sir!

S: Thanks for joining us. We are now 60% of the way through our show? We had to leave the exciting people toward the end because we're tired. So what have you been up to?

D: I've been raising a child.

S: A worth distraction.

D: I am Dean Cameron, I worked on movies in the eighties and nineties. I've been involved in the Skeptic community. I performed at TAM twice. We'll be at TAM this year again on Thursday night. It's an updated version where I get a little bit of money from the guy after convincing Perry Mason

S: So very quickly, it's based on the Nigerian spam scam, they have ten million dollars, and they try to lure you in to kidnap you.

D: However much they can get from you, they will get from you.

E: Somebody on Skype did this to me.

D: They've used all available technology. This guy actually did die in the early eighties. Then they used fax, then email, then Twitter. The problem for people like me is the scammers are getting wise to us. You can't screw with them as much. I once wrote to a scammer for year.

J: So you got one of the emails, and you went for it.

D: At the time, they were everywhere. And I always wrote back “Great. Do you have any toast?” And one of them wrote back. I sent the email around, and Penn Jillette forwarded it to the FBI. And this guy was so excited because he had all these great ideas with how to screw with them, and he gave me all these ideas. So I kept him on the hook, and sent him packages. I got everybody in the audience to give me stuff to send to Nigeria.

J: Did the guy find out that you were BS'ing him?

D: After three months, I built a website, and I put the correspondence on the website. I think my scammer wrote me as another scammer, and I sent him to the website. I wrote back and said I had broken his heart, and it got a little squirrely.

J: So, it's a real person trying to bilk you for money. But right now, would you want to meet him for real.

D: Absolutely.

J: You tried?

D: I tried, but I wanted a better ending. So I wanted to get him on the phone. But it never happened. 

J: There is something fascinating about the time and energy people put into their scam. How much money are they making? There's a story there we will never know.

Part 7