SGU Episode 416
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| SGU Episode 416 |
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| 6th Jul 2013 |
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| (brief caption for the episode icon) |
| Skeptical Rogues |
| S: Steven Novella |
B: Bob Novella |
R: Rebecca Watson |
J: Jay Novella |
E: Evan Bernstein |
| Guest |
RS: Randall Snyder |
| Quote of the Week |
The pursuit of truth in science transcends national boundaries. It takes us beyond hatred and anger and fear. It is the best of us. |
| Links |
| Download Podcast |
| SGU Podcast archive |
| Forum Discussion |
Introduction
You're listening to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe, your escape to reality.
S: Hello and welcome to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. Today is Tuesday July 2nd 2013 and this is your host Steven Novella. Joining me this week are Bob Novella,
B: Hey everybody.
S: Rebecca Watson.
R: Hello Everyone.
S: Jay Novella.
J: Hey guys.
S: Evan Bernstein.
E: Hello Everyone.
S: And we have a special guest rogue this week, Randall Snyder. Randall, welcome to the skeptics' guide.
RS: Good evening everyone, it's great to be here, it's a dream come true.
E: Hey, Randall.
RS: How have you guys been?
J: Pretty good budy, how have you been man?
S: Good thanks.
E: Yeah, we've been good, it's been a while right?
RS: Yeah, it's good to be back.
J: Randall, we haven't talked in what, three weeks, it's good to have you back on the show, man.
R: You guys are really selling this by the way. This is totally believable.
(laughter).
S: So Randall is a loyal listener of the SGU and we brought him on because we wanted to talk about his experience in the Mormon Church. Now we're going to talk about that after Rebecca tels us about this day in skepticism, but just to start a little bit, were you in LDS? Is that the version of the church that you were in?
RS: Yeah, i only had one wife.
J: Is that what that means?
RS: LDS means fundamentalist Later Day Saints and they are an offshoot of the main one in Salt Lake City and they never accepted polygamy being abandoned in 1890 and 1905 and so they're the ones that live on those secluded communities.
E: Mhm. Big love and all that.
R: Warren Jeffs was there, leading it right?
RS: That's the ones where they kick off all the young men so that the old guys can have 13 and 14 year old girls to marry. Not what I was associated with. I was in the mainstream one.
This Day in Skepticism (1:45)
- July 6, 1885: Pasteur injects the first rabies vaccine.
S: Well Rebecca, tell us first about Louis Pasteur.
R: Way to ruin the surprise, Steve.
S: Oh, sorry.
R: yes on July 6th 1885, Louis Pasteur successfully tested the first rabies vaccine, did it on a little boy that had taunted a rabid dog, was bitten by the dog and was thereby in danger of dying a truly horrible death. Pasteur had previously worked that that he might be able to prevent rabies from taking hold using a weakened rabies virus that he had weakened in rabbits but he had tested it only on dogs prior to this so at this point he tested it on his first human, Joseph Meister who lived so he saved his life.
RS: Much like Brad Pit on World War Z.
R: Not yet. Not ready. It was a good attempt, we're not quite there yet, but yes.
S: We call that a premature segue.
R: Happens to most men at some point.
S: Meister was 9 years old at the time. Rabies has like a 100% mortality rate, and he lived to be 74, I mean Pasteur saved his life.
R: He lived to be 64.
S: Oh you're right, 64. I can't add. 64.
R: He became the caretaker of the Pasteur Institute actually and he served as caretaker until his death. He died quite tragically, he committed suicide on the occasion of the German invasion of Paris. Kind of a sad end, but it was kind of cool that he did live as a young kid and he went on to care quite a bit about what Pasteur was doing.
S: Pasteur was uber-cool, his career was just unbelievably amazing, all the things that he did. He sort of broke through with the whole notion of microbes, little germs causing disease. Once you have that insight, he ran with that ball really far.
R: He was one of the first microbiologists. It didn't really exist as a discipline before him.
E: Hey Steve, quick question, when something has a 100% fatality rate, it's OK to do experimental vaccinations and stuff on people right?
S: Well it's ethically easier, there's something called compassionate use, there are normal ethical rules for experimentation and for using drugs off-label, for using experimental treatments, are relaxed significantly if somebody has an unavoidably terminal illness. The rationale is, what have they got to lose? If they're willing to try some desperate experimental treatment, it's reasonable to do that if the only alternative is certain short term death.
Speical Report (4:05)
- Leaving Mormonism: Ex-Mormon and guest rogue, Randall Snyder, discusses his experience.
S: Alright, so Randall, LDS. Tell us about this. Now first of all, you do credit the SGU with saving you from the Mormon Church right?
RS: No you didn't save me from the Mormon Church, you saved me from the aftermath, after leaving the Church.
S: Ah. We eased your transition.
J: I'll take it.
E: You're welcome.
RS: Yes, you were the soft cushiony pillow that I landed on when I took the "leap of faith" to leave the church because it's an very all-compassing church to be a member of, it consumes every part of your identity and there's a lot of social cost to leaving it which is what makes it difficult for so many people to leave.
S: Just like a cult.
RS: It is like a soft cult. It's cult0like but I'm not, the term "cult" there is no definitive definition that I know of out there for a cult, there are characteristics, kind of like the psycopath test.
S: Yah exactly there's the demarcation problem with a cult in that there are features and the more of those features you have the more cult-like you are but there's no one sharp demarcation line.
RS: Yeah, it would have to be arbitrarily determined so therefore that's where it's problematic. So what happened was I was born in the Church, I grew up in Southern California. A big Mormon family, one of 7 kids. Went on a mission, just before I went on my mission, my older brother came out of the closet so to speak when he left UIU and went to Van Der Bolt (sp?) to get a PhD in philosophy, which is toxic to religion. And it came out that he was an atheist just before I went on my mission and that was a really seminal moment in my life and it was pretty traumatic. So we became estranged for several years because of that and then when I went through my "faith crisis" I did it without any assistance from my brother, I just wanted to do this on my own but once I determined that I didn't believe any more I finally called my brother up and he's very intelligent, very erudite individual and he could have referred me to a million different things and the first thing he referred me to was the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe.
S: Cool
R: Nice
J: Wow
E: Wow
J: That is awesome.
RS: The genius behind it was because he did not want to teach me what he thought I should think, he wanted to teach me how to thing, he wanted to reboot my brain.
B: It's a good idea.
RS: Because he knew where I came from and the epistemology I'd used my entire life.
S: Hey I like that, we're going to use that as a catchphrase now. "Reboot your brain, listen to the SGU."
RS: I'm going to patent that.
E: Ooh.
R: Pay you a nickel every time.
J: Hey Randall, did your brother have a strong emotional reaction to this?
S: I smell a t-shirt.
E: Is that what that is?
J: When you called him?
RS: Yeah we actually talked for a bout 5 hours. He'd be estranged from the entire family, no one really knew how to relate to him, no one would talk about things he was interested in so he just sort of separated himself from the family, and now after I've left I understood why, I basically regained a brother and that brother became my best friend, so.
S: But did you lose the rest of your family?
RS: No it was tough, one of my sisters did tell me when she first found out that it felt like a death in the family, when I left the church. That was hard but they've all since chilled out. My mother who could not even be in the same room as my brother when he left the church without crying, she died of cancer back in 1996.
S: I'm sorry to hear that.
RS: She would have taken it the hardest, my sisters took it hard but they've all been really good after the fact and my dad has been awesome all along.
S: Do you think that because of your older brother that it was a little bit easier? Did he blaze the trail for you a little bit?
RS: No actually he acted as a cautionary tale, he probably prolonged my stay in the church.
S: Oh, because you saw how hard it was.
RS: Well, I just didn't want to become an atheist. I was petrified of becoming an atheist and all the things that believers think that when you lose faith in god then you're just going to want to go out and rape and pillage and end up in a ditch with a needle in your arm because you have no moral compass.
B: Of course.
RS: Being a cautionary tale was like you have to be careful about Satan, that's one of the things they inculcate into the membership is that Satan is very cunning and you've got to be careful, his arguments are going to sound convincing but you've got to stay within the guidelines of the church to be safe. So as a cautionary tale he didn't really blaze the trail and that's probably why I didn't involve him in my process of de-conversion from the Mormon Church. Because I didn't become a skeptic, a secular humanist and an atheist all at once, it's really started with this show.
S: Yeah, it's a process.
RS: right.
J: Randall, I'm curious to know, do you remember the early thoughts about questioning your religion, how did that happen in your head?
RS: I've read to many books on cognition to believe my memory any more.
(laughter)
S: BUt you have a narrative. What's your narrative?
RS: My narrative that I've confabulated, it stated with... one thing that's great about the Mormon Church. There's two things that's great about the Mormon Church. Number one, it's young unlike Christianity. It's not hidden by the cloak of time, it's a fairly new religion, there's a ton of documentation around its origins. The other thing I like is that Joseph Smith had balls and made some really falsifiable claims that science can answer like claiming that the native Americans are Semitic in origin. Well, we have DNA now (laughs) and you did actually mention that back when Perry was alive, you mispronounced Angel Moroni, you pronounced it More-own-ee which sounds like an Italian Mafia guy and I remember Perry getting a kick out of that.
(laughter)
S: It's Mor-own-eye?
RS: It's Mor-own-eye, yeah, not More-own-ee. The other time you guys mentioned Mormonism was when you had that guy who was a Professor from Connecticut, some university in Connecticut, that was an archaeologist.
E: Ken Fader, most likely.
RS: He talked about the pre-Clovis sites
E: Mmhmm. That would be him.
S: Yeah.
RS: that showed that migration across the Bearing Strait was earlier than was originally thought with the Clovis sites. And then you guys asked him, what do you think about the claims of some people about the Semitic origins? And his answer was, and I quote, "oh God, no."
(laughter)
RS: That was hilarious. Those were the two times I can remember you mentioning Mormonism because it kind of intersected with science. I went on a mission in Phoenix and they have a really impressive Easter pageant. My job was to work the crowd. I was to look for people that didn't look Mormon and go up and talk to them.
R: They were the people who weren't wearing ties?
RS: Mormons value conformity above all else and so very conservative, they're stuck in the 1950s culture-wise. Short conservative hair, shaved, you know All-American.
R: did you get any converts?
RS: On my mission I had about 40 baptisms.
R: Wow, I mean I want to say well done, but at the same time...
RS: At the same time I want to go back and call all those people but I think most of them left anyway. The church has a really poor retention rate of its converts. But it's really funny that the growth of the church is almost exclusively in third world countries so if you go to South America you'll come home back with like 200 conversions, if you go to like Denmark, like my cousin, he came home with a goose egg.
J: Sucks to he him I guess. So Randall, what was it? One day you woke up and you weren't yourself any more, you were an atheist, like what was that day?
S: Was there a moment that you can remember where you made some kind of mental transition, or it really was imperceptibly slow.
RS: It was pretty slow but there are moments that you remember. It started in 2006 when I learned about Joseph Smith, this is one of the things that I wanted to talk about is that the Church whitewashes its history so that the members are woefully ignorant of their own history because they're only taught the whitewashed version on Sunday and the Internet has caused problems with that.
B: Damn Internet.
RS: But in 2006 I learned that Joseph Smith had married eight women that were already married to other men and I already knew that he was a secret polygamist, I didn't know that some of them were 14 and that some of them were already married to other living men at the time and that sent me into a very private, secret spiral because I didn't want to deal with the secret consequences, I didn't even tell my wife. And that lingered and I was actually at the time, one of the leaders of the congregation, not the bishop, but I was the high-priest group leader which is one of the lower leaders of the congregation and I had a practice that had a lot of Mormon dentists referring to me. I didn't want to deal with the costs so I suffered in silence up until the fall of 2008 when prop-8 came out and all of a sudden I was like, this does not resonate with my moral, internal moral compass. And that's when I decided to take my faith seriously and that was a process of about six months of reading insatiably all of the stuff that I could get my hands on of actual Mormon history and getting angrier and angrier that I didn't know this stuff and I was 34 years old. I let my wife know and she didn't react very well at first but she came around after six months but during that six months I remember sitting on the patio going, I don't think I believe in God any more. We were out by the pool in Phoenix, and she says, It was hard enough that you left the Church, but now you're an atheist? So that was her reaction but she's since become an atheist as well so I've been extremely lucky.
J: yeah that could have went really bad.
RS: It goes really bad all the time, I have many friends who have lost their marriage over this issue, it's very intense.
J: Now I know it's not as simple as this but your story makes me think that it was just the necessity of having the information there, your brain was being analytical, you just didn't have the information to stitch together the real story and then once that information was in there your intellect took over and said, look this is just not, this can't be real.
RS: Well even though I did have the information, it still was a process because it is a constant inculcation and indoctrination from the time, the earliest you can remember, you just constantly reinforced that this is the one and only true church and that anything outside it you'll find misery and then you know unconsciously, I could lose my marriage over this, I could lose my kids, I could lose my family, my practice could suffer and so you kind of drag your feet, sometimes you drag your feet.
S: Yeah you could think as you say that it's all from the devil, right? So the Internet is the devil and that solves all problems.
RS: Yes. Right. And the church growth has significantly dropped since 1998, Harold Bloom wrote a book called The American Religion back in 1992 and he declared at that time, because growth rates in the late eighties and early nineties were looking like the Mormon Church was going to have 100 million members by the middle of the century and be the first world religion since Islam. Boom, the Internet hits and now the church is grown in the United States at a slower rate than the general population is growing, so they're growing absolutely, but relative to the general population they're contracting, if that makes sense.
S: Well Randall, thanks for sharing your story with us, we all find that really fascinating and we're obvously happy that we've played some role in your transition to a religion-free life.
News Items
Crop Circles in History (15:27)
Constructing Morality ()
Movie Review: World War Z ()
Who's That Noisy? ()
- Answer will be revealed next week
Questions and Emails ()
Question 1: Podcast Patent ()
Science or Fiction ()
Item #1: The Cheetah genus, Acinonyx, is the oldest of the extant big cats, dating back about 11 million years. Item #2: Cheetahs make several vocalizations, including a warning roar that is often mistaken for that of a lion, which they use to scare larger predators from their kills. Item #3: A recent study using gps enabled tracking collars clocked cheetah hunting speeds at up to 58 mph (93 kmh). Item #4: The name "cheetah" comes from an Indian word meaning "spotted one."
Skeptical Quote of the Week ()
The pursuit of truth in science transcends national boundaries. It takes us beyond hatred and anger and fear. It is the best of us.
J: Arthur Eddington!
Announcements ()
S: The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe is produced by SGU Productions, dedicated to promoting science and critical thinking. For more information on this and other episodes, please visit our website at theskepticsguide.org, where you will find the show notes as well as links to our blogs, videos, online forum, and other content. You can send us feedback or questions to info@theskepticsguide.org. Also, please consider supporting the SGU by visiting the store page on our website, where you will find merchandise, premium content, and subscription information. Our listeners are what make SGU possible.
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