SGU Episode 337
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Introduction
You're listening to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe, your escape to reality.
S: Hello and welcome to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. Today is Wednesday, December 21st 2011 and this is your host Steven Novella. Joining me this week are Bob Novella,
B: Hey, everybody!
S: Rebecca Watson,
R: Hello, everyone.
S: Jay Novella,
J: Hey, guys.
S: Evan Bernstein,
E: Hey, ho, how ya doin'?
S: And, Mike Lacelle.
M: Hey, everyone, how's it goin'?
J: Mike!
S: How're you doin' Mike?
R: Mike!
M: Good. How was everyone's year?
R: Super!
J: It was good. Thanks for asking.
SGU 2011 Review (0:00:36)
S: That's what we're talking about tonight. So, Mike always joins us for the year-end wrap-up episode. And so now we're gonna talk about 2011, a year of SGU science and skepticism. We're gonna start, as we always do, with the "best of." It's actually best and worst of, of 2011. We've tabulated the feedback from our listeners, those who sent us email or chimed in on the forums. Thanks everyone who responded. So let's go down the list. The first think on the list is the best episode.
B: For me, I've got two shows that really stand out. The second TAM show this past July was so much fun. We had True Fellas that we premiered. We had Rebecca and my science or fiction contest, which turned out not as embarrassing as I had feared, but still very funny. That was, I actually talked about that last shuttle launch that I was actually on-site and saw. So for me, that second day that we taped was a lot of fun. And the second one, of course, I mean how could we not mention SGU 24? That was just . . .
S: Yeah.
B: . . an epic monstrosity of an episode, that was, took, was crazy work, but still it was, it went by pretty fast, I think, and I thought it was very successful and a lot of fun.
R: Yeah.
S: The SGU 24 did get a lot of mention from our listeners, just for the heroic effort if nothing else. It was fun. It was a lot of work. It almost destroyed Jay's marriage before it happened.
M: Oh my god.
S: He was working so hard for it. Luckily we planned the SGU 24 show two weeks before Jay got married. Or was it one week?
J: It was one week before.
R: It was one week.
S: One week.
E: Well, but it was four weeks, or something, and then, Jay, you moved the wedding back, I think. (Steve laughs).
R: Are you blaming Jay for this?
E: No. No, not at all, but . . .
J: Yeah, we actually moved the date back two weeks, so it was originally planned for roughly three weeks before, and we had to change the place where we were doing our wedding 'cause we had too many people. But, you know, it's like one of those things . . . you never know how bad it's gonna be until it happens, until like you really get into it, and it, it took me a month to build the set. And of course, leading up to it, the week, two weeks up to it it was like every night for four or five hours. I was like screaming at everyone, I was (laughter) not sleeping, I lost like fricking ten pounds. I was freaking out. It was horrible.
M: Jay made me cry, twice.
R: Aw. You probably deserved it, though.
E: Ohhh.
M: I'm not the one who spray-painted the friggin' camera, Bob. (much laughter)
B: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got five molecules of paint on the camera, pardon me. (more laughter)
M: CCD chips, Bob. CCD chips.
S: Another episode that got a mention was 290, Episode Number 290, where we did, we had the guest rogue, Dr. Ray Greek. A lot of people like that interview. And just overall thought it was a good episode with a lot of good discussion.
J: That was a good interview because Ray and you did not agree on a couple of different things that you were discussing.
S: Yeah. There was, it was polite disagreement on the whole animal rights thing and research.
J: Well, you guys handled it really well, I mean, there was no confrontation whatsoever, and, you know, it was pretty significant disagreements I thought you guys were having. But, both of you really were respecting each other, and I remember Ray emailing us afterwards saying, you know, "wow, it turned out so good, I was so happy that you and I were communicating so well" and all that, and it was just a cool, cool disagreement to have without there being any, nobody's hair was standing up.
S: Well, this kind of dovetails into the next best of, which is the best interview of the year, and Ray Greek did get some mention. Joshie Berger, I think got a lot of mention as well.
R: Joshie's well loved.
S: He's a funny guy. We had good chemistry with him on the show and I think that everyone
B: He's a force of nature, that guy.
J: Joshie definitely is incredible, even when you're just hanging out with him. He's always funny. He always has profound or provocative things to say and everything. I mean, you know, he pretty much is who he is on the show, he is in person. Never a loss of energy with that guy, he's awesome.
B: Check out his Facebook post, he's like the boldest guy I know, and only Joshie can get away with that stuff. And you don't even, you know, it just doesn't bother you. I wouldn't dream of saying things like that.
E: His background amazes me, 'cause he effectively escaped that Jewish cult of a family that he was born and raised into.
S: Right. Right.
E: And, has been effectively trying to bring people over and escape from that kind of lifestyle.
J: Yeah, he's a good skeptic.
E: . . . orthodoxy.
J: He is pulling people over, and he is educating a lot of people. And he does it with in-your-face and humor and everything and it works. It's really good. I'm actually, Joshie's one of those people that I'm excited to see what he pulls off. I'm sure that he's gonna have something happen that's gonna be pretty cool.
S: Yeah. And he made a cameo for us at the 24-hour show. He cooked us lunch, or dinner on Saturday, which was
B: That was awesome, yeah.
S: The other interview that got a lot of mention was a recent one, with Neil deGrasse Tyson.
M: Yeah.
E: Yeah, I put that on my list.
S: Yeah, Neil's just awesome.
R: Ditto.
B: He's so charismatic. You just can't help but just,
S: Yeah.
B: be in awe when he talks. He just grabs your attention, and just won't let it go. It's really, there's not many speakers that are like that.
E: And never enough time with him, it seems. I mean, we could go on for days talking about things with him. You just never tire of Neil.
S: Yeah.
R: Yeah, let's just say, we've interviewed him a number of times and it's always been fantastic, every single time.
J: He's one of those people that, I feel has really put a lot of energy into educating himself and polishing himself to actually do this. He's very calculated in what he says and how he interacts with his audience, and I've heard him talk about this.
S: Yeah.
J: You know, he monitors his audience and he's able, he's so quick that he can actually change what he's doing and change his demeanor and change what he's talking about.
S: Although, you know what's funny. When I edit the interviews, when I edit the shows, I pick up a lot of things that I miss while we're doing the interview, while we're doing the show. And during the Neil deGrasse Tyson interview, we were talking about, what you were just saying, Jay, about how you present yourself, and studying how to be a good speaker, and being very deliberate in word choice and whatnot. And he sort of gently chided me during the interview for using the term "sensory modality." As if that was too technical a term to throw at a lay audience. And we had a little bit of fun with that. But when I listened back to the interview, I noticed, which I didn't notice at the time, which would have been perfect, but like not two minutes before that he used the term "in situ." (laughter) Which, I think, is a little bit more obscure than "sensory modality" and if I only had picked up on that it would have been the perfect comeback. But, I didn't. (laughter)
E: Next time. You'll get him next time.
S: I didn't even think about it until I was editing the show.
R: It's tough to one-up Neil.
S: I know it's tough.
B: Yeah, right.
E: Can I give honorable mention to Mark Mervine, who came on
B: Yeah!
E: and is an expert on nuclear power with the time of the Fukushima
S: Yeah.
M: Oh, yeah.
E: nuclear meltdown.
R: Yeah, he was on my list, too. I wouldn't even call that honorable mention. I think he was just, he did an awesome job. And huge thanks to his daughter Evelyn who was writing for Skepchic at the time
S: Yeah.
R: for getting us that interview, 'cause he was very knowledgeable and it was just, yeah, it was the perfect person to have on at the perfect time.
S: I have to say, as much as I, of course I love interviewing all of our skeptical colleagues, and the regular players, they're regular for a reason, 'cause they're awesome. But, often the interviews that I find like the most surprisingly interesting are those with just scientists or just experts who are not part of the skeptical community, or as part of the skeptical movement not the kind of name that would come up if you think about who would be a good interview for the podcast, but they have just some area of expertise that they're really interested in talking about or they did some research that they want to talk about, and often those are in many ways the best interviews. Like who would have figured this one?
R: Yeah.
S: You know, this nuclear scientist, or technician really, you know, being such an awesome interview.
R: And along the same lines, Paul Provenza was one of my favorite
S: Yeah.
E: Mmm.
B: Yeah.
R: interview this year. I found him surprisingly relatable. I guess I had low expectations because I assumed that he was too brilliant to be nice and, and to get along so well with all of us, but he was really fantastic and down-to-earth. I really enjoyed talking to him.
S: Yeah, he got a lot of votes, too.
J: I completely was in love talking to Bill Nye. I love talking to him.
S: Yes.
J: Yeah, I can't not mention him, even though I think it's more personal, maybe. The interview, the interview was good, but I was sitting there like just bouncing out of my seat the whole time 'cause I just love being in front of that guy. And also, George Hrab, to me,
S: Hrab (correcting pronunciation)
J: I love it. George Hrab to me
E: H-rab.
J: I loved having him on the show and I absolutely love talking to him and I think we get into very cool conversations with him.
S: Speaking of George, I actually, I wanted to mention another episode as in my top five for the year. And that was the episode that aired on September 24th.
E: 323?
S: 323. This was the first show that we ever recorded in front of a live audience, but not a live show, you know what I mean? When we were at Dragon Con we did our live show, we're on stage, you know, recording a show but in front of an audience. But then we also recorded like a studio audience show where they were just observing us recording the show. It was a small intimate group, like ten, fifteen people. And it really, it lent such a fun dynamic to the show. There was just something about it that was different.
J: Yeah, and Brian Brushwood joined us live.
S: Yeah, George Hrab and Brian Brushwood joined us as guests on the show, and we definitely need to do that again. That was a lot of fun.
J: That was a weird show, though, because, we went in areas, like we never even approached personal material like this before. Like we were talking about crazy stuff, a few people actually that wrote in, said something. We were talking about when we were kids and about peeing and stuff (laughter), and all sorts of crazy stuff.
E: Yeah, that, that's Geo.
J: Yeah, Geo did bring that up that night.
R: I think that I speak for all of us when I say that our live shows are some of the most fun to do because we have a different dynamic when we're all in one room. For those listeners who don't know, we record this in completely different cities, so we don't actually see each other. So doing a live show gives us a completely different dynamic, but we're still in front of a large audience every time we do a live show, except for this one particular show we were doing where there were only, how many, fifteen?
S: Yeah, I think fifteen maybe.
J: Yeah. And we were kind of sitting in a circle, like we could see each other in a way that we never have seen each other before during a recording. I have to say, too, when we talk to Randi, I have so much fun during our conversations with Randi, and he, you know for a guy in his 80s, he jumps in the room with us, he's just as funny as the rest of us. He's, arguably he's, you know, he's got more speechcraft than all of us.
S: Well, yeah. I mean, he's obviously been doing this a long time. He's very, he's very polished. He's actually the only professional showman of all of us. Obviously. And he's, you know, recently he's been very sharp. You know, I think he's really recovered well from his prior issues. You know, his ailments. And it's great to see Randi in good form.
B: He's so lucky. I know I'm just gonna be a blithering idiot if I reach that age. He's as sharp as a tack.
R: Yeah, I mean I'm not a quarter that sharp when I have a cold. Let alone having all that . . .
E: Yeah. It's all that Nyquil you drink.
R: I do drink a lot of that. It's delicious, what can I say?
S: So Jay, you mentioned talking about peeing, and that got a lot of vote as the funniest moment of the year when Bob and I were reminiscing about how far you could pee as a young child. (laughter)
J: Yeah, are we gonna talk about that again?
S: Just that much. You have to go back and listen to the episode.
R: Well, the listeners like it.
J: I had, you know, just mammoth skills at urinating when I was six years old.
B: Five or six years old.
S: So, what other bits did you guys like from the year?
J: I don't know why this stands out for me. I just absolutely loved it the moment it happened. Of course it has something to do with me making fun of Rebecca, but, I'll play it for you.
R: It's not out of the question for a plant to produce sound. That happens, you know, even like Venus fly-traps and things can produce small amounts of sound. But I think it's more likely . . .
(deep voice) Feed me!
J: Yeah, what do they say, Rebecca?
R: (laughing) I think. . .
J: ( slowly, in a somewhat high-pitched voice) Land . . . here . . .please. Come. Land . . . here. (giggling)
R: I, I, are you done?
J: And then, at the end of that show, I don't know where you got this second clip from, Steve, but this is what Steve played at the end of that show as like the
S: The outtake.
J: You know, the Easter egg.
S: And until next week this is your Skeptics' Guide to the Universe.
(little voice): Come. . .here. . .come.
(laughter)
M: Oh, man. For the 24-hour show, and Jay's wedding, I stayed up with Jay and Courtney for two weeks, and I think Jay said that come here, "Come . . . here. . ." line about, I don't know, a good dozen times. (laughter)
J: Something gets stuck in my head and I just blow it out. I say it a million times until I can't stand it anymore. (giggling in the background) Another bit I loved, which I think is funny and I didn't really, when it happened it was in the same episode as the "come here" thing. Where I was absolutely sure that there was no way that the multiverses were communicate, were you know, basically sending each other information, 'member that? That science item, science or fiction item and I was . . .
R: Is this the one where you had like a complete nervous breakdown?
J: I was so pissed. I was so freakin' mad because I
R: It was pretty entertaining.
J: So I have, I actually have some audio for that, so I'll play that right now.
B: All right, the first one about the multiverse.
J: Bob, come on, Bob.
E: Give him a chance.
J: I think most of the reason why I think that is because of what Bob has drilled into me over the years. Bob, really? Come on!
B: Well, let me talk. (laughter). Jay, I agree that discovering or detecting something outside our universe is probably impossible. But, Jay, I disagree with your premise, they don't necessarily need to detect something outside the universe. They could potentially detect another universe that somehow interacted with our universe.
J: I hate you.
B: That's
J: NO! It's bullshit!
B: A much more higher probability.
J: Bob, we're in an enclosed system!
B: I know, but if the multiverses interact somehow, so perhaps they could possibly look at that interaction, perhaps looking at the cosmic microwave background radiation . . .
J: Okay, so which would mean that there has to be some type of energy exchange, which there isn't! Bob!
B: I'm just saying, Jay, it sounds more plausible than you
J: Plausible? Oh, my god! (laughter)
E: Poor Jay.
B: If you look at these other multiverses they could potentially interact somehow with the cosmic microwave background radiation, perhaps. So there could be some sort of interaction, so yeah, detecting a universe outside of ours, no. But
J: Bob, I can barely find, I can barely find my way to the post office, and you're telling me that we're detecting the multiverses?
(laughter)
R: Well, to be fair, you're not a physicist, Jay.
J: Thanks, Rebecca.
S: And you were wrong about that, Jay. Let's remind of, yeah, you were wrong.
J: I was dead wrong.
S: Yeah.
J: I still don't believe it.
E: But passionate. You know, you get points for passionate.
J: I still don't think we're detecting the multiverse.
M: I think that point's clear.
S: So, Jay, is that your most unbelievable science or fiction story for the year?
J: That happens to be, yes, that was the one I put in there.
S: Yeah, that was a pretty good one.
R: You pretty much have to.
S: Someone voted for the Who's That Noisy exchange in episode 287 about My Little Pony.
R: Yeah, and I'm glad I was there to defend, at least a little bit, and assert how cool it is. Because I think a large portion of our audience are bronies (laughter), and other My Little Pony fans.
J: Rebecca, please.
E: Hey, if they're teaching skeptical messages
S: Like juggalos?
E: More power, more power to the pony.
R: If you'll recall we, well, first of all, the reboot of that cartoon series has a huge following. And it's a overlap with our particular brand of science-loving geeks. And, second of all, if you recall, after we played that Who's That Noisy, the next week, someone wrote in to say that he was a writer for My Little Pony.
S: Oh, yeah.
E: And that episode in fact.
R: And that he's a skeptic. Yeah, he helped write that episode and he did his best to put skepticism into My Little Pony. So, yeah, we've got people on the inside there, we've gotta give them some respect.
J: All right, well
S: I'm not sure that you've convinced me. Mike, do you have any best moments for the year?
M: The 24 show, for me, was a good one.
E: Let's play it now. (laughter and talking)
J: Well, I'd be curious to hear, what was your favorite bit that we did during that whole time?
R: Which hour?
M: Which hour? Hour 13 was awesome.
S: I like the quiz show. In which I kicked all of your butts.
R: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S: That's just a side point, that's not really relevant.
J: I have two very memorable moments during the 24-hour show. One was the D&D game.
(Several people respond at once)
B: That was surprisingly awesome.
J: Yeah, I thought our friend Doug did an incredible job coming up with a skeptically-themed, 30-minute D&D game, it was a lot fun. I was really surprised. We had no idea, you know, we came up with all these ideas about what we were gonna do and we don't know what's gonna work or what wasn't gonna work.
B: Not just that, Jay. You know D&D very well. It's generally these huge long boring stretches and it's not necessarily made for video at all. And he made it just jam-packed with awesomeness and it was fast-paced and interesting, and he perfectly tuned that for the venue, like I did not anticipate could be done.
S: I have to say I was skeptical of the whole idea of running a skeptical D&D game during a live show because, yeah, conventional wisdom is watching other people role play is the most boring thing in the world. But, even when the people role-playing are having fun, watching them do that is just incredibly boring. But Doug, his performance of the game is what made it fun.
R: Yeah, and it was fun even for people who don't like D&D. Like, I've never played D&D in my life and I thought it was a lot of fun and we heard from a lot of listeners who have never played and they thought it was awesome, too, so I think that that's the mark of a successful D&D game.
J: And, you know, now, Rebecca, you have played D&D.
R: No, well yeah, I mean I have, just then, yes. (laughter)
S: So you can't say you've never played anymore.
J: Or you can call it Skeptics & Dragons if you want.
R: (whispering) Damn it.
S: One more point on your geek list.
E: I've seen you in the Lark costume, too, so
R: That's true, yeah, I've done all of that now. I _______________ play a full game. But I would rather it be skeptical. But so long as Doug runs it I think I'll be happy.
J: We'll have you down for a weekend and we'll fulfill all these other geek slash dork fantasies of yours, don't worry about it.
R: Yeah, I'll have to make like a dork bucket list. A dorket list. (laughter)
E: We'll have you down for dinner.
J: The other thing I loved, I really thought was fun and just unexpectedly good was our musical jam with George.
R: I hated that. (laughter)
E: Were you rhythmically challenged?
R: I hated that because I hate trying to keep rhythm. (laughter) I really like, I like playing guitar, I like playing the trumpet, I can't play the tambourine. To save my life.
J: It was more like we, you know, the thing that made it interesting was we were doing it together, you know. We've never done anything like that together before. You know, George drove us well through that, and it was, the chances of that not working as well as it did were great. And it did, it worked. It came off funny and it was fun to do. But you know what? I think my, now that I think about it, my favorite part of the whole thing, other than the second it ended, was when we interviewed Dad.
S: Yeah. Oh, yeah, that was
B: Yeah. That was another segment that really was so much better than I anticipated.
S: You're just a pessimist, Bob.
B: These little horror stories go through your mind, "Oh, Dad, please don't say that and please don't mention this." (laughter) And it was really scary because this is live, but it was just an order of magnitude better than I imagined. It's like, holy crap, this is great.
S: I had my finger on the kill switch the whole time. (laughter)
R: The kill switch was just a gun pointed at your father. (laughter)
S: But you know, your parents can give a perspective on you that nobody else can. It's not always the perspective you'd like to have broadcast to thousands of people. (laughter) So, I, let's move on to, first, the jackass of the year, and then skeptic of the year. This is always a fun segment.
R: I'm gonna put my coin down on Burzynski.
S: Burzynski is on my short list.
M: Yup, that's who I have.
S: Stanislaw Burzynski, for trying to intimidate science bloggers, who were criticizing him for being a cancer quack. For selling his chemotherapy, antineoplastons, as if it's some natural non-chemotherapy. And claiming to have like personalized chemotherapy regimen, you know, by doing genetic analysis, it's all just made-up crap.
R: Someone on the forums put their finger on it. They said "Burzynski deserves to have the Streisand effect renamed for him." (laughter)
S: Yeah.
R: Which is the name for the effect that, you know, the more you try to keep something quiet, the more the internet will publicize it.
S: Right. Although that was named for Streisand before the internet, but. The flip side of this, at least one listener voted for the skeptical blogging community as skeptic of the year for having the backlash against Burzynski, and other similar episodes. When someone tries to suppress legitimate skeptical criticism by bullying or intimidation or threatening a lawsuit or calling somebody's, complaining to their internet service provider to get them shut down in some way, we decide, okay, now we're gonna magnify the criticism a hundred times, and criticize you further for being a bully. And that's worked every time and this was just the latest episode. It was awesome.
J: Yeah, you cannot do that on the internet. They have a clear lack of understanding and appreciation for how powerful the internet is and how willing people are to not play. They're not gonna do what you want, and that's it. You cannot hold information back.
S: Right. We have a network now. If someone says, hey. . .
R: We have a posse, is what Steve means.
S: We do. This guy's trying to shut me down, the word goes out, and within a day there's at least a dozen of the highest profile science blogs on the planet are now criticizing you. Good work.
B: I had to throw out, I mean, this guy didn't kill anybody and didn't take away anyone's medicine, but still, it really annoyed the crap out of me. Harold Camping.
J: Of course! That's my guy.
S: Oh, yeah.
E: He's on my list.
B: Because he turned the stupidest little thing, and the media blowup is what really surprised me. I mean, I drove every day by billboards. People are spending thousands of dollars just on a stupid billboard advertising this crap. And cars that had stickers and signs on them. And I saw it on the news like all the time and I read articles about it. It's like oh my god, how is this getting such play. How are so many people focusing on this and wasting tens of . . . or more', tens of thousands of dollars on something . . .
S: He did destroy people's lives.
R: Yeah, and there are people who
S: Maybe not their health, but . . .
R: put down their pets, and, I mean, yeah, he caused an incredible amount of havoc in people's lives. He definitely deserves to be on the list.
J: Absolutely.
S: He's the loser of the year. I would definitely vote for him for loser of the year.
J: That was a very illuminating event, because, you know, I'm hearing people at work talk about it!
S: You mean, taking it seriously?
J: Yes.
M: I have on my list for jackass of the year, I'm not sure exactly who it is, but it's the people who are putting those Italian scientists on, or geologists, I guess, on trial for manslaughter, for not predicting the earthquake.
E: Yeah.
R: Oh, yeah.
S: Yeah.
B: Yeah, that was pathetic.
E: Ken Ring made my list, as well.
R: Yeah, good one. I heard from a few of our Australian listeners who are very, Australian slash New Zealand listeners who are very thankful that we called out Ken Ring on his B.S. They were, kind of like the Bruzynski thing, they were relieved to see other skeptics around the world pick up the story and criticize him for it.
S: All right, you guys haven't mentioned my number one yet.
E: Wakefield.
R: Kevin Trudeau?
S: So, Kevin Trudeau, he's always on the list, but I picked him a few years ago. I picked Egnor as my nemesis one or two years ago. Who do you think . . .
R: Bennett, is it Bennett?
J: Oz.
E: Oz.
S: Oz. Mehmet Oz. My pick for this year as my anti-skeptical nemesis. The thing that really pushed him over the top was the arsenic and apple juice story this year, where he . . .
J: That was horrible science.
S: made a non-issue into a complete scare-mongering, ignoring the FDA and ignoring the government. Essentially saying "this is irresponsible reporting, you’re getting your facts wrong, here are the facts." And they said, "Forget it, we're gonna do the story anyway. Screw the facts, this is gonna get us good ratings." Completing his journey to the dark side, essentially, with that piece. So he definitely wins for me this year.
E: And you had to confront him face-to-face on his show.
S: I did, and I have to, there's that too, and I have to sort of, he has to be my pick this year since I was on the Dr. Oz show, and did go in front of, toe-to-toe with him.