SGU Episode 413
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| SGU Episode 413 |
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| 15th June 2013 |
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| (brief caption for the episode icon) |
| Skeptical Rogues |
| S: Steven Novella |
R: Rebecca Watson |
J: Jay Novella |
E: Evan Bernstein |
| Quote of the Week |
The function of education is to teach one to think intensively and to think critically. Intelligence plus character - that is the goal of true education. |
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| Show Notes |
| Forum Discussion |
Introduction
You're listening to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe, your escape to reality.
today's Tuesday June 11 2013 Steven novella joining me this week hello everyone Chino Valley guys and Steven Bernstein the 1234 we are missing 11 rogue and when I get back is it okay to do then we have to be without a limb I mean a less important show goes I listen to every episode 3 times if you do first from insanity fragical don't hold on to read what time is it in his back later trolino
This Day in Skepticism (1:26)
June 15 1667: The first human blood transfusion is administered by Dr. Jean-Baptiste Denys.
so hey do you think the first human blood transfusion happened to Brock June 15th 1667 Way Dr. Jean-Baptiste Denys to do it wasn't human to human in get what you want but he did was he bled a boy with leeches 20 times and then back up with 12 ounces of sheep blood banks yeah I did not as bad as you say cuz cuz it was only 12 ounces the boy surprised and they didn't record kind of horrific reaction organ failure blood coursing Sherita negative reality destroyed it as a foreign body but it just wasn't enough to kill him and the same thing happened with the second patient at he gave more sheep blood to a man bit later than his third patient was a baron who he gave two transfusions and then on the third transfusion the guy died I was already 86 transfusions but Jesus put on trial for is to use a turkey did the guy's wife what are you so excited Kia give up medicine and in 1670 blood transfusions were banned in France and David mean that way until Karl Landsteiner discovered the four blood groups in 1902 that point I realize why you can't give sheeps blood to a human and expect it to be fine. it to you antibodies using milk as the blood white vs red that's all Cowan goats milk in 1884 Celia business salt water fuse replaced milk with a black substitute that's good to get your volume up at it's amazing how late all this happened 1901 you before you realize that 1667 it took was at 230 years for into the vagina tear out the blood Creek yes it was 1628 by the way the British tradition William Harvey that the blood circulates initially at that didn't realize the blood does the heart pumped blood through the body beast floating in the heart that was the explosion that sort of propelled exploded like a cylinder engine Hannah dummies what is the app blood in your animals patient dying people done here Directions. Blood exploded between the heart and that was the explosion tattoo Blakes lota like a cylinder engine right now accelerated physical therapy citrus fair dummies explosions what is her thick is it is the average people putting blood and other animals platitude patient or dying people see if these things work done we wouldn't be here you know as horrific as it sounds the answer to level up more ethics today are medical practices research in of course it does probably in a lot of ways slows down progress getting ashes what is good and people took chances like this in the past a roast you know we would still be the dark ages I'll have what she's doing better at 60 don't think it doesn't Peters me because of me all these advances to research on on animals although the aminal rights activist went on a great b*** putting go to probably was not a way to figure out how to do blood transfusions Merkel at all the kinks for humans to it and then there's a lot of critical process that was made thanks to poor people who were kind of experimented on a gangster knowledge of consent for prisoners Hannah before humans have basic rights in a lot of that was inspired by the Nazis a lot of the modern medical ethics actually was a reaction to a kind of stuff happening in the bed everything else is just a test affect they didn't exist anymore was a great thing for the world.
News Items
Vaccine Refusal (6:26)
- The Register-Guard: Vaccine opt-out change advances
S: So Jay, you're going to tell us about parents refusing to vaccinate their kids speaking about medical ethics.
J: Yeah Jun 6th this year 2013 The Oregon Senate voted on Senate bill 132 that will require all parents to receive information about vaccines either from a doctor order online video before they can opt out. Before the bill parents refuse getting your check a child immunity mouth Siri go imitated activated I get immunization before the bill parents could refuse getting your child in eyes on religious crabs by signing a form which was really easy or Bayside Medical grants for immunization would be considered dangerous are necessary and I have never heard of that for another kid you to talk on that if you know anything about Steve Winwood when would it be dangerous to get vaccinated if you're in a compromised free samples blood cancer can you going to be able to mount a of a response medical reasons why you wouldn't it be nice if we don't like to meet people for activities sick fighting of infection you want to give me one more chance okay so there's Jersey Jimmy circumstances were someone shouldn't get a vaccine truck show at Rikers to bait a bill passed 16 to 13 fit in the bills now heading offer for further approval of past 10 years exclamation exemptions of has grown to 6.4 percent of the Oregon kindergarteners and this is the highest rate in United States real quick the basic principle of vaccines is to raise a herd immunity of diseases high enough where the disease can take a foothold in a population so as an example even if 100% of people got vaccinated a small percentage of those people are immune to one or more of the vaccines meaning that didn't build any kind of resistance to
S: They're non responses probably not misleading to take me to the vaccine booster non responders
J: Right a resume build up immunity to whatever disease vaccine is trying to help to under these ideals circumstances 100 percent of people get vaccinated 1989 people have almost 20 chance of passing the disease in this is because there so few people that the chances of passing along your cat low but now its growing tired of people walking out of vaccinations herd immunity is below the waterline diseases are in up swing like whooping cough, measles and chickenpox in particular what is the address doing my research topic acre to meters much bigger question that arises here and it that is the Federal Reserve local government be able to require certain types of health care or sure you take ativan for the mat take a date require anything to say to require a lot of things did you use our laws that protect citizens from other citizens and this is a perfect example of that Senator Doug Whitsit of Promise Falls said he personally believe vaccinations is the right thing to do but who are we to tell parents of children that they must vaccinate. Where do we get that right alright so much is the job of government to make decisions that simultaneously respect the safety in rights of the individual while maintaining to see if you write the message I'm sorry to point out to you senator which it its hard being in a position of power because you're there to make difficult decisions like these only logical thing to do is choose to take the most beneficial rock for for the most people visit
S: the argument falls flat on his face feet demonstrably the government demonstrably has the right to take kids away from parents if those parents are guilty of abuse or neglect not even active abuse. just neglect so is that right of the government to intervene on the benefit of a child if their parents are not filling their minimal duties as parent is well established in law and I think generally accepted nobody would reasonably argue that parents have the right to abuse and neglect their children The only only real question is not does the government have the right but is refusal to vaccinate children a form of the collector medical neglect to end it and is a justified remedy got that situation mandatory vaccinations in the in the US where is mandatory vaccinations but only to enter public school which is a pretty minimal requirement agony UK there is no such a mandatory vaccinations in the US in a year ep want to teach your kids to public school you either have to be to get vaccinated were you need to get an exemption rules effects does exemptions, how easy or difficult is it to get an exemption from being vaccinated shoes fishing USB religious freedoms an individual freedoms definitely highly valued question that exemptions to reduce herd immunity to reduce the compliance with vaccines, a successful vaccination program does work better if you don't like any exceptions in states that do allow religious exemptions should be as difficult as possible and you should just be check this box, you don't have to justify anyway why you don't want to vaccinate your kid then that's if it's that easy just checking a box of having to justified that's not mandatory right mandatory in name only here there any other threshold you have to receive some sort of instruction about the safety and efficacy of vaccines to make sure that you're making an informed decision on behalf of your children a pretty minimalistic requirement also. In other states with that being implemented Jay fan to be to reduce vaccine refusal rate by 25 percent so it's not completely efficacious but it does reduced vaccine refusal rates, so that's good because you know how to get to store dead magical herd immunity
J: this is like paying taxes. It sucks for some people probably for most of us something that we know no enjoys going to get a vaccination for the moment that happens whenever but its for the benefit of everyone we're part of a society
S: It's also for the benefit of you, it's not like taxes in that the individual get vaccinated benefits the risk vs benefit is in the favour of the individual its not a sacrifice you're making for society or for the community for the for the greater good it's actually beneficial to you to get back seat protector so if you want to sit in a classroom a 20 other kids summer moon may not medically be able to get vaccinated they have a right to be in a classroom too, they have a right not to die from vaccine preventable communicable diseases and you can take away the right because you refuse to get vaccinated if you really feel that strongly better than find some other way to get your education you you don't have a right to the public restroom. I think that I'm just like a people if you want to drive to get drivers license you want to go to public school you gotta get vaccinated it that's it reasonable to have such requirements for receiving some kind of Public Service or good
E: better if you are able to convince people to come to this conclusion on the Rhone rather than it seem like its being forced upon them
J: the education route is absolutely a hundred percent the best way to go to a man to fish type deal but in these circumstances right now Steve we have we have people getting sick and we are people dying
S: yeah I think we have for you in the u.s. we have very high vaccination complience, we have pockets, there are community that are below immunity levels because of anti vaccine propaganda
R: speaking of, I think I mentioned this on a previous episode the Australian should check to check out the documentary Jabbed that showed up on your TV um weeks ago its it's the perfect way to convince people who are on the fence about vaccines that vaccines are necessary.
Seeing Ultraviolet (14:56)
Alright thanks Jay, let's move on. Let me tell you a story about it and engineer who to Charlie was the name we here
Who had eye surgery to remove uh oh and bad lands a cataract and had a fake Lynch put in gas and since the surgery zoom in and making noises bionic man no but he claim to the future he could see in the ultraviolet spectrum oh wow oh how to interpret that so those are all good questions also see into the future can I take to the future Russian class question shut them actually there are no dumb questions only dumb people stores where is Lake ok to leave it out of the key under is this really real or not gonna believe it like yeah I know the truth it's interesting and then a lot of biological questions. Why would that be? can our photoreceptors see in the ultraviolet? Why would that be a latent ability? Why would our brain be able to interpret does sick so I look into a pretty deeply and after doing research is my conclusion is this is real this guy is legitimate. this is the moment so what color is its will the person you're right you're in that we are brains are not wired to see new colours that we've never seen before its just that ultra violet light will stimulate the color receptors in the retina the cones
in little interpreting someway
exactly so some people reports just seeing an extension of the violet spectrum still looks violet to them and other people reporting make a whitish blue because whatever just depends on how their receptors of being stimulated by the UV light that you might wonder why this happened to Pine removing is cataract and putting in a fake plants because the lens filters out ultraviolet light
ash course
so when you remove it the filter is gone and some brands of the Ficklin just don't filter out do you feel like early start as much the last time you be like true and then suddenly you can see that let you read your receptors will respond enough to that UV light that affect your vision so he being an engineer alica keys is his name and he didn't like a prism and to create a light spectrum like a rainbow any shows like how far to the ultraviolet end of the spectrum she could see it farther than you can see high heels most people see this line swear I see to I can see all the way over to hear you're still had your friend is who has a name on a transmitter create a single frequency of light show in different frequencies to see if you can perceive them um any claims he can and things that are like you and I would see is black some things that you and I was like he sees is having a violet clover Sheen to them only case I found reported there another cases of people who on having their lens removed suddenly see ultraviolet light including, this is a historical case, Claude Monet
Oh cool
He had cataracts when he got older and he complaint to lose friends set colors look muddy to him and that was very impressed tremendous a parent for an artist and so it actually he was the age of 82 he allowed one of the lenses to be removed and that restored the full color vision to that eye and also he started to see colors that he never saw before that was reflected in his paintings on there is a painting of water lilies which normally are just white that he painted with a blueish hue that his house somebody might see it if they have a little bit of UV sensitivity sounds like a pretty convincing historical case and there have been a number of papers published on it you looking at the fact that yes to lens filter regulating yes color cones can respond to UV light so it all is plausible true when I first read it tonight and on a Vista sexually is true that there are some people live we be talking like this before the show who have tetrachromacy for different kinds of cones and you have much more vivid a pallet of colors that they could see
J: oh wow that is awesome
that's cool closer to birds
yeah birds have true tetrachromacy, the see into the unltraviolget spectram so in fact there are they were bird species that we thought I make a male and a female look identical because of humans but if you add the ultraviolet spectrum the males have a sprite ultraviolet tripe something um it safe to take them they have no actually no trouble telling the sexes apart Western dental Brea violet Street youtube I want to be able to see that you guys get surgery to see any ot about spectrum
(need to redo the following, it's terrible)
if the surgery were really reliable are going to take out your lenses and put in a better lenses that wonderful value to freakin focus again so I don't worry glasses and to which ventricle drive to you lie to you could see me VI was considered a me not to know now my eyes are good so I'm going to leave the way they are in a couple more years of you want it yeah I know if you don't really like my glasses and then if I became a cyborg cyberguys posers in Oakland A's out of my glasses oh I like about being hot to you what does hipster glasses yeah George being a bandana over here I always so I get to you right now I'm being over yeah where does Joe Rizza Ford glasses and painters pants I know you got me
Ape Feet (21:46)
S: Alright evan, tell us about people with ape feet.
E: I will do just that.
R: you mean all people?
I now how is going to type something else in here for a moment Valle heard of Bigfoot real name of this story is exactly like a Bigfoot news story because involves a primate and prom in to feet but there is no distinction difference this one's face inside it was real okay strip game today imagine you're a day trip to sign it turns into experience were you the visitor becomes part of a scientific experiment and it was for 390 300 almost 400 people visit earth to the Boston Museum of Science participated in a scientific study involving their feet professor Jeremy DeSilva from Boston University ask the museum visitors to walk barefoot and he observed how they walkedk professor DeSilva would have the visitors walk over a special mechanize carpet that was able to analyse a component of their feet in a pint studying the data turns out that one in 13 or 8 percent of the participants have flexible ape-like feet are human ancestors would use there bare feet to wrap around the trunk trees allowed for a better grip and wild mature tose vaults dirty or more rigid feet for stability a fraction of a still have what's called midtarsal break witch bends the foot in the very model the results showed differences in foot bone structure similar to those seen in fossils, a member of the human lineage for about 2 million years ago a human road called Australopithecus sediva suggest that this distant cousin of ours also had this same ability in the foot
R: cool
S: yeah they're not really like ape like like modern Apes me don't have the toe going out to the side just have this one little flexibility in the middle in middle of the foot essentially
R: See I had the opposite reaction to ape-like just like a complete so what because of course our feet are like apes, we're apes. Just saying. It's not a very descriptive adjectives
J: So Evan, can they actually do anything that we can't do as people with normal feet
S: Normal, yeah they're abnormal!
E: Us normals, the 92 percent of us who are normal well uh
S: Jay, you have to embrace foot diversity
E: they say that with people with this mid foot break have flatter feet ultimately I guess that's kind of the you what does that midtarsal break is there an end with if you were able to come to loosen up a ligament which have grown rigid sturdier along the foot you could yeah there could be some bending in the centre of the foot that were not
S: It would be interesting to study the biomechanics of this foot vs the more typical foot if there are advantages and disadvantages in different situations like barefoot running or shoed running or swimming or whatever or climbing the notion is that it gives you a little bit more flexibility if your if you're climbing something you need to feed your feet a grip on
E: to grip
J: How cool
R: Is there a way that we can figure out if which kind of feets we have?
J: Well Rebecca, let me ask you a question you're walking through your kitchen and you reach for banana do you reach with your arm or your foot?
(laughter)
R: I can actually do that I can pick things up with my feet a lot.
S: Yeah.
R: Though it's more with my toes.
E: That's a toe function, there's not a bend in the middle of the foot.
R: Trust me I'm very lazy and so when I drop things including bananas I don't bend over.
Yeah I mean I've done that but I'm talking like with articulation, you scratch your face with your foot, you know.
E: Or brush your teeth with a toothbrush with your foot.
R: But they do have those, I'm assuming that that pad they use is similar to the one, you know when you go to running stores and they'll fit you for your perfect sneaker and they'll have a pad that you can walk on that will measure your gait and how you land on your foot and stuff.
E: A quote from a paleo-anthropologist from the Max Plank institute of evolutionary anthropology name is Tracy Kivil said "the research of implications for how we interpret the fossil record and the evolution of these features. It's good to understand the normal variation among humans before we go and figure out what it means in the fossil record."
S: so I predict that creations will use that in order to argue that fossil hominids are not transitional they're just humans with ape-like feet.
that's right.
So this is actually evidence against evolution for the creationists
even though it's evidence for evolution but they'll make it into evidence against.
J: alright so I want robotic eye lenses and ape-like feet Superman I'm half way to a superhero at that point.
E: you are, we're building you better stronger faster.
R: I don't know, you're half evolved and half devolved.
S: Jay I would take a prehensile tail that would be cool
E: Or a third eye.
J: So long as I can sit normally and lie back yeah I don't have to sleep on my stomach
S: You've got to tuck it down there in your crack
J: that would be really really useful that I could totally see that being awesome
R: Nobody wants to hear about your crack, monkey crack.
S: What mutation would you want to have Evan, so we've got prehensile feet, the ability to see ultraviolet light, a prehensile tail...
E: You mean my third eye suggestion doesn't count because nothing has three eyes?
S: Oh yeah it's lame. It's lame.
E: Lame!?
R: I'd want to shoot laser beams out of my eyes to kill my enemies.
S: Laser beams out of your eyes?
J: We'd have to kill you, we'd have to put you down Rebecca if you had that power, that's too dangerous.
R: Or a unicorn horn.
S: Or how about full organ redundancy, a second heart, you know.
R: Why bother with that, just go with the ability to regenerate.
S: Now you're getting crazy.
R: That way you're not lugging around organs you don't need all the time.
E: Wolverine. But also what if I were to spread my arms and have these...
S: Wings?
E: Flaps of skin, yeah, and go gliding around and stuff.
J: You would need something huge like it would be bigger than a hang-glider type wing, you would be like a flying squirrel type deal Ev.
R: Yeah you would also need like thinner bones and stuff.
S: Yeah.
Elizabeth I a Man? (28:35)
- The Daily Mail: Is this proof the Virgin Queen was an imposter in drag? Shocking new theory about Elizabeth I unearthed in historic manuscripts
S: Alright Rebecca,
R: Yes?
S: was Elizabeth the first actually a man?
R: Nope!
S: But I read it somewhere that she was a man.
R: next! "Is this proof the Virgin Queen was an imposter in drag? Shocking new theory about Elizabeth the First unearth in historic manuscripts
E: It's like you're reading that from the mail online or something.
R: Says the daily mail. In any other than any other newspaper that would be the most embarrassing article they've ever published but for the Daily Mail it was just Friday.
E: the Daily Mail to win a Pulitzer for that one.
R: so yeah it was a long article by Daily Mail standards too.
E: It was goot it was like it saved me the effort that have to go by the book yeah
R: yeah exactly so this entire article is there only because Steve Barry is a writer of like historic crime fiction, not historic but like like Dan Brown he writes, he's a Dan Brown want to be. You see his books at the airport in that rack and you consider buying them until you season who's on the cover of GQ and you get that instead. So she's reading this book and that's why this dumb piece of horse shit is in the newspaper. So what historic manuscripts have been unearthed proving that Elizabeth I was actually a man? Well none are actually mentioned in the article about the novel written this year by Steve Barry, or the story by Bram Stoker that he wrote in 1910 that was never earthed in the first place so it can't really be unearthed. He wrote a book called Famous Imposters, it's available in full online and has been for quite some tome by I think archive.org or whatever.
S: Bram Stoker of Dracula fame.
R: Yes, Bram Stoker who wrote Drakula. He wrote this book Famous Imposters, that was proportedly non-fiction, about imposters. And deep into the book he writes this one story abotu Elizabeth I based on rumour and conjecture. But he, Bram Stoker believed to believe it, so why not, let's take it as fact. And the Daily Mail article actually, if you go and you read the Daily Mail article, you don't really need to read Bram Stoker's article because they're pretty much cut-and-paste, it's the exact same thing.
E: Oh good, save me more time.
R: Yeah. So let me break down for you the sory. The story is that when Elizabeth I was a 10 year old child or so she was sent to the countryside to avoid the plague or any other illnesses but she ended up getting sick after all and her caretakers were very concerned she got very very ill and then she died.
S: They gave her a transfusion from a goat
R: THey gave her a transfusuion. Uh... no. That had not been invented yet so she died and Henry the 8th was on his way out of countryside to visit her and so her caretakers where terrified that he was going to put them to a grizzly death like not just, they wouldn't just be hanged, their guts would be pulled out and they'd be drawn and quartered, the whole deal, just a terrifying horrible death because that's what happens to people who let royalty die or something.
E: Yeah.
R: So they replace Elizabeth with a boy. They can't find any girls in the village that look anything like Elizabeth, so instead they find this boy who is a distant cousin who is also a redhead and they dress him up like Elizabeth, they present him Henry the 8th in low lighting and Henry the 8th, being the world's worst father, which I can accept, and also terminally stupid apparently, says OK great, let's head home. And so for the next five decades, a boy continues to pretend to be Elizabeth I through her reighn.
E: That's where Monty Python came up with that whole idea of that "Mother, Father" skit.
R: Yeah it sounds like a funny play or a terrible book. So here's the evidence in favour of this argument that she's actually a man. Number 1 Elizabeth never married and remained a virgin several points here. Number one, so what. Number two, she was molested by her step father Thomas Semour when she was a teenager which I think would explain any reticence to marry in the future.
S: And yiou'd think he would have figured it out if it were a boy in drag.
R: You'd think.
S: Like M-butterfly.
R: And his molestation of her was made so well known that he was put to death for it, and for later plotting to sort of marry her after his wife died. So yeah, there was that. And also, why is it more plausible that a man went for 40 years without having sex than a woman? Like that doesn't actually solve the mystery of why Elizabeth would not be interested. And in fact don't you think that there'd be a lot more going on around the castle, a lot more rumour to keep quiet if maids are getting felt up and stuff? Uh yeah. So it's... no. Shut up.
S: I think the best reason offered is that Elizabeth was just too smart to be a woman.
R: Yeah that's number three on my list. Number three, she was too smart, too strong. This isn't just a funny conspiracy theory, this is also deeply sexist.
S: Absolutely. She was described as not having the mental weakness typical of women.
R: Right.
J: Didn't they watch Shakespear in love? She's a woman.
R: Did anyone watch Shakespeare in love?
J: Yeah, three times.
E: That's alright.
R: Evidence number two. She wore wigs and a lot of makeup.
E: Didn't everybody who was royalty.
R: First of all she was a queen and she does what she wants. Second of all she apparently had smallpox at one point which contributed to her baldness like her hair was falling out, not like cueball bald but her hair was falling out and her skin was all messed up on her face so yeah she wore a ton of makeup. You would too if you were all jacked up.
E: Very small pox.
R: So yeah. The other bit of evidence was that she once told her troops, I have the heart of a man, not a woman. And I'm not afraid of anything.
E: Smoking gun.
R: Obviously she was just doing a tongue-in-cheek... no, it's a metaphor. It's a metaphor based on the exact same sexism that says that a woman can't rule a nation without the help of a man, like she can't be smart, and she can't be strong enough. There are a lot of other holes in this stupid, stupid story. For startes, no one got put to death for failing to save a sick kid in the 16th century even if the kid is royalty. Elizabeth wasn't even that special as far as roylatly goes.
S: Yeah at the time she was not letgiamised, she was not the next in line for the throne, it's only in retrospect that you would impose this story on her.
R: And also in the real world no way woudl a random ten year old boy be able to pretend to be the most famous and the most watched woman in all of Britain while he was going through puberty. She had maids that would report on her menstuation to report that she was healthy and that she was capable of concieving.
S: But Bram Stoker Rebecca, I mean he wrote Dracula.
R: That's true, and that was 100% fact. So.
S: That was based on a legend.
R: The thing is it could be a fun conspiracy theory if you like that DaVinci code sort of stuff but let's not pretend that it's real because it really is deeply sexist, the fact that one of the greatest monarchs that England ever had could not possibly have been a woman, like we have to invent this ridiculous back story to explain how she was actually a man. Come on. BS.
Special Report: Follow Up on Don McLeroy (37:58)
- Neurologica Blog: Final Response from Don McLeroy
S: Well a few weeks ago we talked to Don McLeroy who is the former chairman of the Texas State Board of Education and he was the one who presided over the recent kjerfufle about the science textbook standards. A very interesting interview. After the interview I engaged with him in an email blog discussion to see if we could take it any further. And now that's sort of played itself out I want to report on what the bottom line of that discussion was
R: Did you convert him?
E: Did he convert you?
S: No and no. A little disappointing, I thought that, I was hoping to get him to engage a little more directly with my points just to see if I could at least back him into a corner but he just kept reverting to his original points. So his, what it came down to in terms of his position, and you know I always find these exchanges instructive, if nothing else I wrap my head around exactly the logic that they're using to defend their position. So Don McLeroy's position as to the weaknesses of evolution, why he does not feel the evidence for evolution is convincing, he's following this logic: biology is really complicated so the evidence for evolution would have to be proportional to the complexity of life, of biology and it isn't.
E: By his standards.
S: Yeah, by his standards, by his subjective estimation it isn't proportional to that complexity, therefore the evidence is weak. For example, he says oh look at this chart of the biochemical pathways in the body, there's so many of them, it's this massive chart, we've only figured out a few of them, and of all the history of life on earth, that evolutionists claim would be the case, we've only fleshed out a portion of them and we'd need thousands and thousands of times more evidence to build a convincing story. Or look at the complexity of the cell, the cell is so vastly complex and yet we don't have a lot of direct evidence for how a modern cell evolved. So there's a couple of massive porblems with his position. One is factual, one is logical. The factual problem is that there is a lot more evidence for all of the things he's talking about than he is acknowleging. I confronted him directly on that. He basically, his method for figuring out how much there is, how much evidence there is is to count the evidence offered in popular writings about evolution. And in fact in our blog exchange he did that, he said over the last three or four blog posts and all of the comment there's only 8 pieces of evidence were offered in favour of all the complexity for evolution, which of course is not fair. He also miscounted, I mean he was counting as one "piece" of evidence a link that I provided to a review article that literally had over 100 references, I deliberately linked to a rewview article because it's a reasonable sumary of the evidence and he counted that as one piece of evidence. In the comments I used an analogy that everybody seemed to liek so I'll repeat it. I said that's exactly what Gimli did in the third Lord of the Rings movie when Legolas jumps on the Olipaunt and kills all the warriros on it and takes down the huge beast all by himself and at the end of this amazing feat of millitary prowess, single handedly taking down that entire creature and all of the guardians on it, Gimli says "that still only counts as one".
R: Argumentum ad dwarfum.
S: Yeah, the Gimli...
R: The Gimli gambit.
E: Oh, very good.
S: Gimli gambit, yet. So he pulled that. I think he didn't read the reference, you know.
E: Or see the movie.
S: So there were a couple in there like that. But anyway, also I said, we had this long discussion about whether or not it's appropriate to use popular writing to estimate the quality and depth of the evidence. And I strongly argued that you can't. I mean you have to have some familiarity with the techical literature. Like look, here's a reference with 100 technical articles in it talking about just the evolution of biochemical pathways in prokaryotes. And here's another one that has 100 references in it, looking at eukaryotes. Why don't you start there and then you start counting up the evidence there. And he never gave up that point, he said that it's reasonable to use popular writings to estimate the quality of the evidence and I proved that he was wrong I think. I said I was analyzing your logic I wasn't setting out the summarize the evidence for evolution, but I said OK, but here it is, here's a quick summary of some of the lines of evidence for evolution and some references to large amounts of evidence. And his response was, I don't have time to look through all of your evidence.
E: Hey Steve, how much do you think his background as an engineer plays into this particular stance that he has in regards to this particular point.
S: I don't think it has to do with the fact that he's trained as an engineer or he's a practising dentist. It's motivated reasoning, you know. He has his conclusion, although he's trying to give, in my opinion, to give the appearance of due diligence without the substance of due diligence. So relying upon popular writings? No no, it's not adequate. He asked for evidence, I gave it to him, and he basically said, I don't have time to look through all that evidence.
E: Ran away basically.
S: But whatever, maybe you could say that he wasn't willing to confront that head-on, but I planted the seed, maybe he'll look through it at some point, who knows. And I mean it's just massive, the amount of evidence is just massive. I mean the amount of evidence is just massive. But there's is a deeper problem with his argument. Not only is it factually incorrect, he's grossly underestimating the volume of evidence for various lines of evidence for evolution, he's looking at the evidence in the wrong way. He's saying that the evidence, the amount of evidence has to be proportional to the complexity of life on earth and the alleged history of life on earth rather than saying, looking at evolutionary theory in terms of how well has it made predictions about the evidence that we have. That is a much better way of judging whether or not evolutionary theory and the different components of evolutionary theory such as common descent for example, whether or not that's likely to be true. How useful is it as a theory and how well does it make predictions bout future evidence? I and many other people have convincingly argued, remarkably well, thank you. The evolutionary theory has been stunningly, stunningly successful in predicting the future evidence. I gave, as one of my favourite examples, bird evolution. So in Darwin's time, that was a massive gap in the record, right. SO we had birds as a kind, birds as a group of life, probably their closest related other group is reptiles, so at the time you could argue about whether, what group within reptiles would be most closely related to birds. Evolution didn't demand that birds evolved from dinosaurs but if evolution and common descent were true, we absolutely would need to find connections between birds and some group of reptiles. If evolution were not true or common descent were not true, that would not be necessary and what would the odds be that we would find that? I mean it's hard to really calculate those odds but I think that people take for granted the exquisitely evolutionary pattern of the fossil record that we find. I think it's so much taken for granted that people don't realise how powerful it is as evidence for evolution, the power of the predictive value of the evolutionary theory and common descent. So in the last 150 years we found primitive birds, essentially small dinosaurs with feathers. Feathered dinosaurs, this entire adaptive radiation of feathered dinosaurs, of primitive birds, of primitive feathers, in a proper temporal sequence and a reasonable geographic sequence, so not just randomly scattered around time and geography, they're in locations and times that's an exquisitely evolutionary patter and something like that was required if evolution were true, but not if evolution were not true. The probability of finding that pattern of fossils in the record just by random chance alone is I think is minuscule, it's so small that it pretty much rules out any other alternate hypothesis.
R: Except for planted by Satan.
S: Well unless you have, so I was about to say, some contrived theory that basically says that the evidence looks as if it were evolution and you can try that in some way, but then Occam's Razor deals with those alternatives. Evolution and common descent is certainly the simplest and most elegant explanation for why the fossil record is what it is. And then you take the evidence for the evolution of birds, multiply that by a couple of thousand and that's what we're really talking about, in terms of all the evidence for everything, I mean pretty much name any major group and we have a pretty good fossil record of a temporal sequence. There are still some gaps, like bats, there is a pretty big gap between mammals and bats for example. But for many, many, many things, we have a, you know, pick it. Pigs. Dragon flies. Whatever, there is evidence for a reasonable sequence at least filling in the connections that we would expect to be there.
E: You know I think that Don's kind of clever in that he really doesn't deny that evidence, he just says that it doesn't add up in that there's not enough of it.
S: Yeah but that's a denialist strategy. You can always say "that's not enough." It's easy, it's cheap. It's not really a meaningful scientific or logical analysis.
E: It's like a form of moving the goal posts.
S: It is, absolutely. It's absolutely it is moving the goal post, but it's just denialism, it's just, "that's not enough evidence, I want more evidence." Well how much? How are you deciding how much evidence is enough? And again, it's just looking at it the wrong way, that was I think one of the key insights that I got out of the exchange. Anyone who's interested I suggest that you go to Neurologica blog, read the entire exchange, there were I think five total blog posts including responses from Don McLeroy and I think very revealing in terms of the motivated reasoning and the denialism on display.
E: When he wrote to you, in part of his last exchange with you, he said the following, "Of course our major disagreement is that I am a theist and I am an atheist, I wonder how much that colours our view of the sufficiency of the evidence for evolution." What did you feel about that, when he wrote that?
S: That is a typical false equivalency argument, that is typical of the creationists. They say, OK evolution and creation are just different ways of viewing the world, different ways of viewing the evidence, and they're as biased as we are. So it is, in a way I think, emblematic of how weak a position creationism is in today compared to 100, 150 years ago when they were actually trying to dethrone evolution or stop it from being taught at all. Now they're sort of content to say, alright creationism isn't science, creationism is just a belief system but so is evolution, trying to drag evolution down to the level of creation with these false equivalency arguments but of course they are not valid because evolution is an actual science that makes predictions and could have been falsified and has multiple independent lines of evidence in support of it and creationism isn't even a scientific theory so there's no equivalency there whatsoever.
Who's That Noisy? (49:54)
- Answer to last week: Anne Sullivan
S: Alright Evan, it's time for Who's That Noisy?
E: I'll play for you last week's Who's That Noisy as a reminder and we'll talk a little bit about it.
We found that she could feel the vibration of spoken words.
E: That was the voice of Anne Sullivan best known for being the instructor and companion of Helen Keller. Helen Keller of course is a very famous figure: American author, political activist, lecturer. She was the first deaf/blind person to earn a Bachelor of Arts degree. And her story, if you've seen any versions either on television or Broadway play "Miracle Worker" explains the story of Anne Sullivan being able to help Helen Keller come out of a life of being incapable of speaking or understanding things and, with her own disabilities, because Anne Sullivan herself was blind, was able to show her, basically teach her what things look like, sounded like and felt like in the world. And really uncovered this really sort of brilliant person that was underneath unfortunately this broken body.
S: So who's our lucky winner this week?
E: This week's winner goes by the name of iPuppy.
S: iPuppy?
J: iPuppy.
E: iPuppy, isn't that cute? Like an Apple product or something. But in any case, iPuppy you are the winner this week, you are now in the final drawing at the end of the year we're going to draw the winners for the year and that final grand prize winner will join us for a round of Science or Fiction.
S: And what have you got for this week?
E: Alright for this week, another classic Who's That Noisy which I'm giong to play for you right now.
I won't stand here and watch you murder your patients just because you can't be bothered to read the latest science.
E: Alright you can join our forums at sguforums.com and leave us your response there or you can send us an email, wtn which stands for who's that noisy, wtn@theskepticsguide.org and I wish you all the finest, greatest most wonderful amount of luck every bestowed on any human in the history of the planet.
J: Oh my god is there a cherry on top of that?
E: Good luck everyone.
J: And make sure the address is .org not .com we had someone email me today complaining that the email didn't go through.
S: Ah it was user error, huh? Alright thanks Ev.
Questions and Emails
Living on Sunshine (52:31)
S: One email this week, htis one comes from Neil from Canada, very imprecise but Neil from Canda writes:
Seattle woman attempts to live on sunlight water Thought you guys might find this interesting. It will be interesting if she admits failure or fakes it.
R: Breatharian.
S: A breatharian yeah so this is following the advice of the website livingonlight.co.
R: Proof that we'll never be able to get rid of all pseudo-science and irrationality because breatharians can continue somehow to spread their "philosophy", the stupidest, most dangerous like immediately deadly thing and they continue to do it.
S: Her name is Nevanna Shine, I wonder if the Shine is a pseudonym.
J: The website tells you, go outside right before sunset and you increment the amount of time that you stare into the sun, so you've got to start doing it for 10 seconds and you add 10 seconds every day and you keep looking at it and then... you know it's just like with these ritualistic things that they ask you to do until you build up, you know I just read it like you're building up this internal battery.
S: Yeah.
J: And then eventually you won't have to eat. Every time I read stuff like this, it's like, give me the person and give me three days and we'll figure out who's hungry and who's not.
R: These are the people that Randi had to stop testing for the million dollars because somebody was going to die at some point.
S: Yeah.
R: It was such obvious nonsense, they were either going to cheat or they were going to kill themselves and he didn't want that on his conscience.
E: Didn't he catch one of them sneaking out to get Burger King and he confronted them on the way back to the hotel.
J: And the guy said he was goig to smell them.
R: The guy said he was just going to breathe in the vapours, yeah.
(laughter)
S: So apparently Shine has already lost 20 pounds since she started her experiment, now the difference here is that she's videotaping herself to prove that she's not cheating.
J: Yeah because it's...
E: OK, that's she's not cheating any time she's in front of a camera.
S: That's what Neil was referring to when he said it'll be interesting to see if she admits failure or fakes it. She seems sincere but that doesn't mean anything, I mean she's gullible. And reading the justification for this philosophy is again, it screams scientific illiteracy. First, the notion that the sun energy is getting in through your retina somehow to your brain. OK that's seeing first of all, but again they have this vague concept of energy, it's just energy is getting into your body somehow. Staring into the setting sun, first of all is an irrelevant effect on how much soar energy is impinging your body or light is getting into your brain, it's just silly. And also they claim that we eat food for energy so just cut out the middle man and get the energy directly from the sun ignoring the fact that we also eat food for nutrients, not just for energy, but for vitamins and minerals, so called micronutrients that are necessary for the biochemistry of our body to function so it's not just for energy even plants don't rely 100% on sunshine, they also need water and they need to fix carbon dioxide and they need to get nutrients from the soil so maybe she should eat fertilizer you know, breath carbon dioxide.
R: You telling her to eat shit and die, is basically what you're...
(laguther)
J: But why would we have to learn to absorb sunshine?
S: Yeah.
J: You know I don't understand why they think, why is there some kind of process for learning how to do this.
S: Well she thinks that once your body is starved enough it's just going to magically find another way to get energy. It's going to invent chlorophyll and just start producing chlorophyll I guess.
E: Yeah did you see that quote where she said, "I have the feeling that my body has reached the point where it's used up all the stored fats, uit's now looking around for what next to consume."
S: Yeah, your body. That's what it's going to consume.
R: It's just opening up all the cupboards, looking for the nutrients. I'm sure it'll find them eventaully.
S: Right but it will be interesting to see what she does when she is starving todeath. At what point is she going to say, OK I think I'm going to eat now.
R: There are people who have died from this.
S: Or is she going to try to fake it, is she going to try to hide it? Or is she going to be one... according to seattleglobalist.com four people have died doing this, tried to live just on sunlight, I don't know if it's accurate but she could become another breatharian statistic.
J: You need water much more than you need food.
S: Yeah, she is drinking water, but Jay that's just to flush the toxins out of her body, you know.
E: Aaah.
J: But the idea is, after not eating for a while there's a lot of bad things that happen. I think in a number of days you would feel so disoriented, so wrong. I mean I'm restricting calories right now just to lose some weight for the summer, it's like my yearly maintenance, I always do it this time of year. And I'm cutting out like a very moderate percentage of my calories and I am utterly miserable.
R: You're just a wimp though.
E: How does your body not just take over at a certain point and override what you will is and really seek out the food and you just subconciously go and put something into your mouth.
S: Yeah the desire to eat must get pretty overwhelming.
J: And then you can't just binge after not eating for a while too. You have to reacclimate yourself to eating. It's a very scary and medically dangerous thing to do yourself.
E: Do you reckon she's hooking herself up to an IV or something off the camera?
S: It would be easier to just eat off-camera. If she's going off-camera right? It would just be easier to eat.
E: But if she's being sincere about the whole think which we think that she might really be, maybe she's doing somethign like that, not counting it as eating, calling it a fluid or something and justifying it that way.
J: How long has she lasted so far?
S: 32 days and she's lost 20 pounds.
J: So 32 days and she's claiming that she hasn't passed one calorie in, right?
S: Just water.
J: I think she's lying.
E: I guess... do your bowels shut down at some point.
J: Yeah, you're done. Evan you're digestive tract shuts down.
R: I remember reading a blog from a breatharian years ago...
E: Soooooo hungry....
R: It was pretty funny actually, it was more... so he was describing that this was his lifestyle, he doesn't need food to live he just needs sunlight. But, he said, in order to maintain good social relations with the people around him and his family, he was expected to go out and eat and have dinner with his family and stuff and they would ask questions or harnague him if he didn't just eat a little bit. So he was doing that but in his head he was living entirely off sunlight and those times that he was eating were just few and far between but I got the feeling that was actually every night of the week he was eating. You know, just because he believed in it so much he definitely believed that he was living off sunlight, he just forgot all those times he was actually eating food.
S: Yeah that's like the yogic flyers who were jumping really high and thinking that they're levitating.
J: Did they do it on matresses where there's more bounce? Hey to all you breatharians out there, do not move to Seattle because you're going to die.
S: Yeah, somebody pointed that out, Seattle is not a great place to live off the sunshine.
Science or Fiction (1:00:34)
Item #1: A new study finds that only 5% of people properly wash their hands after using the bathroom. Item #2: Researchers find that 35% of designated drivers still drank alcohol, most to the point of impairing their driving. Item #3: Despite being mandatory in some hospitals, less than 50% of health care workers received the flu vaccine in 2012.
Skeptical Quote of the Week ()
The function of education is to teach one to think intensively and to think critically. Intelligence plus character - that is the goal of true education.
J: Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.!
Announcements ()
S: The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe is produced by SGU Productions, dedicated to promoting science and critical thinking. For more information on this and other episodes, please visit our website at theskepticsguide.org, where you will find the show notes as well as links to our blogs, videos, online forum, and other content. You can send us feedback or questions to info@theskepticsguide.org. Also, please consider supporting the SGU by visiting the store page on our website, where you will find merchandise, premium content, and subscription information. Our listeners are what make SGU possible.
References
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every little thing to sign fiction facts can you tell me which ones pink is the fake we haven't seen this week no you guys love names this is a bat out compliance people doing when they are supposed to do compliance 118 you study finds only 5 percent of people properly wash your hands after using the bathroom I never to researchers find a 35 percent of designated drivers still drink alcohol most to the point of a pairing the driving h***** to 3 despite being mandatory in some hospitals within 50 percent of healthcare workers receive the flu vaccine in 2012 for the first ladies are very sterban your own way right eye mean Marjorie de 5 percent of people properly wash their hands after using the bathroom properly wash your hands to measure bike properly meaning of soap and warm or hot water supposed to Coldwater no soap and long enough certainly with soap you have to sing happy birthday or something like that um without paying the drop rate for doing something to the happy birthday not do that there um um I don't know off lease mall right there 35 percent of designated drivers Hill drink alcohol pairing driving while I believe I drink alcohol but I would like to have a beer something doesn't get their blood alcohol level up to a legal limits um and less one less than 50 percent of healthcare workers receive the flu vaccine that's really unfortunate that one's true I can see there being a big c*** are the population on a lion to the sense with vaccine well I'm going to say that I think it's the 5 percent of people properly wash your hands I think maybe it's that time it was is Lois 5 percent but with recent the last generation or so orange cation about people wash answers commercial on television now promoting kids make sure you want you wash your hands to know I know they do a lot of it School District brings home a piece of paper with reminders kids to wash your hands and stuff so I think that ones that too low of State Washington slash fiction Rebecca this funny because we first ask questions I was 100 percent definitely going to say that 570 Washington Kansas fixing his disgusting but eventually it because of the word properly you mention the whole Lake singing happy birthday staying I heard the ABCs the same difference yeah but now I can't believe it Vegas for 21st Ashton my head was Lake only 5 percent of people wash their hands after using the bathroom which is which which the horrific and hopefully wrong I think I feel like I would notice if only 5 percent of people living in a public restroom you know the UTC to one person walk out of the Stalin right out the door what the f but it doesn't happen to properly thing yeah I can believe the 5 percent of 85 percent actually juice wash your hands for long enough in yeah I believe that.
I believe that 357 Disney drivers still drink alcohol because people are stupid murderers I can't I get to the by the people don't realize how big they think they can have a beer to and it doesn't hurt them that that is point driver I can't believe that healthcare workers receiving the same less than 50 percent of healthcare workers receive the flu vaccine 2012 only because I thought that it was mandatory for the most part for Michelle characters um hospital staff I don't know about doctors offices but yeah I thought it was a mandatory thinking if that's the case I should be much much higher than 50 percent so I'm in NJ what about 5 percent of people probably washing your hands after using the bathroom I totally agree with that is I think I think this thing that people think what people are doing is not washing your hands long enough really easy to not keep your hands off the water in the sides long enough just very calm and I see people at work but barely weather in Sweetwater not even you so so that one is science far as I'm concerned researchers I find the 35 percent just need a drivers are drug for drunkard not completely sober Rebecca saying to a mean I could see the designated drivers of portion of them are having one drink to drink early and then I'll be fine by the time we leave to deal with this last one about 50 percent of hospital workers even in a mandatory situation or not getting the flu vaccine that's true that possibly be true 50 percent I think of you more like 5 percent don't get it there their they see the people they see the sickness when would the reason be if I don't know 50 percent in Minnesota high percentage this is the reason why I think this one might be it because it's such a phenomenal a high percentage is the weather like really a really not it take to get a drivers list so there's an even spread your while okay I like that yeah one that isn't even sprint areca some pictures in order to wash your hands after using the bathroom every think this one direction and this one is science unfortunate and yeah I got it is the proper leaf 1107 spell it out significance of that it is you you describe the three well I've been using soap and doing it for a long. Of time with her to properly 15 to 20 seconds show me 5 percent of people use open wash their hands for 15 seconds Metro PC says it necessary to effectively kill germs the average person watch their hand relief 60 seconds 15 percent of men didn't wash their hands at all compared to 7 percent of women 50 percent off menu so prepared to 70 percent 5630 head Washington earlier in the day so its later and later in the day that thing
30 Plus have to touch that freakin door knob yeah I make a kick the door do everything everything you speak Chinese food stores lot of cars have them now this is a little metal thing at the bottom of the door you can just hook your feet under in Oakland are you sure your b*** back into it or take paper tell the dragon with that grab that end with people were people are more likely to wash your hands a sign in courage in them to do so as president you know what I thought it would be even more effective than a sign saying washer and staring at you a picture of a pair of eyes mp3 player Park science stuff for honest when is Ice T and Coco are there
Just a picture of a pair of eyes and look at that people are Park science stuff for honest eyes and Co are there to pick up your type stuff that's more effective feeling that you're in the dirt squirt and irregular. You gotta leave after using that's right I don't either I need to layer of skin field yeah I don't like that either it's great to handy yeah um is it in Japan shake your b*** super bacteria Bionic 5280 septic kills bacteria to know superior Alta Vista Dr Lisa having like antibacterial soap maybe but not around the alcohol that's more effective it easier to Siri 212 number to researchers find a 35 to drivers alcohol most often. Driving to Jay Z this one is to fiction Direct TV 21 is science um NRA news for society bad in a study that was the University of Florida study 35 percent it doesn't get a drivers had a significant alcohol levels craters and point 02 in some countries actually live in in the United States the legal limit point 08 but generally speaking the recommended level translate not being a peerless in 2005 and um da Mata recommend 2005 into um some countries use a plan to cut off so in this study the 35 percent grade point 82 or greater than half of those rap 2005 or greater 20 percent of the script point 180 Post you are the worst designated driver on the planet yeah I think that means designated driver Lake Drive the best when your drunk like that what you thought it was I hate people hate people so much sometimes recommended daily driver you shouldn't drink at all s*** on a concept people do to make the effect that alcohol has on their blood alcohol level don't realize how fast you hear the word level gets up to in Paris level bacon take it that share not like other people I know my limit to drink one more than other this all mean that the spicy mandatory some hospital with 50 percent of healthcare workers receive the 2012 that one is fiction Sears the information does depends on whether or not getting the flu vaccine is mandatory or not over also the CDC report over all rate of flu vaccine uptake on healthcare workers in the 2011 to 2012 season was really think 89 90 percent percent of 65 percent what is right on in hospitals where is mandatory it was like 90 8.7 person not mandatory everywhere where to train down at the transit to make a minute or two this is based upon Risa researchers found that in those hospitals Windows systems make it mandatory to be sold in very very few employees basically decided to quit resident get vaccinated
Um most of the vaccine refusers were part time workers comp most of them ventrally relenting got back sedated very few tiny percent reporting a 12 percent cited to buy to quit because it mandatory vaccinations not a problem for the Employment does raise the complete rate 9899 does the Tria fishing bass better reception for healthcare workers the responsibility to get vaccinated is even greater than working around it mean a compromise people bases shake you could a body is a professional responsibility in addition to being a good citizen yeah how do you take your Steve Lillie to give me the traditional needle gun with tiny tiny little something you barely feel it in New York you can get the nasal cavity just a little bit of soul Harrison Ave to live virus news on tonight im getting a text via to CVS shot p**** with this a skeptical caveman production yeah House house pre production coming on a change is going really well I'm working night and day on this and uh I just sent out an email to the umm the people that you mailed to me volunteering and it's not too late to volunteer if you uh or local enough to come and want to be at the shooting help us you could do that very easily to send an email with DSL line ACH and you can tell that your info at the skeptics guide .org and I'm going to respond to you and I'll find something to do people donating time does props and I have people showing all the space is a pretty quickly but I definitely would still enjoy having more people join us in war so looking for some actors Wells if you're interested just shoot me an email and also if you want to help production and you can you can't buy coming in person you still donate and also to send an email awesome Steve yeah I have a phenomenal quote a tear it first last week I forgot your name you did it does not make you upset conspicuously ass in angry ales from people uh what's the number for Mitt 20 people notice noticed I want me to do this week I'm doing this to to inspire people raging happened to react to stop doing thank you know so I was the yellow out the name of last week's quotes the author of the last week I won't less people email me just let me know hey no bake you bake a continuance want to know if anyone actually listening University of Dubuque AARP in Cincinnati that was like this guy is like the late shift on the radio station TV show $10 the first person that called and nobody called in
Hahahahahaha ah so this week's quote is a quote from Dr Martin Luther King Jr in the code is the function of Education contentedly think critically intelligence plus character that is the goal of true education for King Jr the first person acro better the second part Mitchell 515 critically the military with that way to public school system the size of their child to teach City character morality to students is it search to feel sometimes a little bit dangerous city close to propaganda you know seriously $5 from home with stuff like this is the flavor of 1984 to Rihanna recycling stuff to do in recycling in case fine but its just a lot of evidence to support a lot of recycling that happens sometimes it creates a reaction to feel good propaganda deer I just I just remembered air that was a pretty horrible propaganda certificate I got hoes at Gina do you not get that when you guys are in school anti-drug stuff for you know if your dad smokes joint reddit tournament sorry if you see something say something yeah yeah yeah I was like a little bit like the anti bully want to talk about nose knapsack on a bus okay yeah life after people die from random explosions I can see that is common sense but you just get this explosions from back pack release to turn kids into narcs to see how it affected the club I think you saying that education does character well okay to look at it yeah I think so saddened by a listener named maje Davie made in Asia major majai thanks Jake in just a quick reminder that there's still time to sign up for the amazing meeting July 11th 14th in Las Vegas Nevada this is a huge schedule meeting will be there you'll be getting push ups angel PSU dinner Friday night poker tournament Saturday night to end listeners speakeasy sheer are really impressive we have Susan black barber treasure Jerry Coyne senal Emory Cooper leaving to Massimo's get to Massimo's for the price of 12 and many others going to be an awesome conference Cheryl to see a lot of our listeners there thank you all for joining me this weekend good night see saying cute goodnight everyone ANATEL next week skeptics guide to the universe University dedicated to sign in on other websites short notice does a fetus Christians to vote at 4800 website information listeners possible