SGU Episode 665: Difference between revisions
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=== Followup: Interstitium <small>(53:09)</small>=== | === Followup: Interstitium <small>(53:09)</small>=== | ||
* [https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/science-and-pseudoscience-of-the-interstitium/ | * [https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/science-and-pseudoscience-of-the-interstitium/ Neurologica: Science and Pseudoscience of the Interstitium] | ||
<!-- The next one is i got a the half of brazilian emails about thie interstitial in science fiction topping from last week. Yes, with this one definitely needs an update. So if you recall, one of the science fiction items last week was that scientists have discovered a new organ that that is a syria's of fluid filled cavities under the skin and in the connective tissue. And that was science. And what, of course, has been a lot of developments on this story since since we recorded the show last week. And of course, as we remind our listeners, three days goes by between the time that we record the show and when the show comes out and stuff happens in those three days. First, this is a this is not a news item, stay silent or fiction item, which means that the item just came out and yeah, there really hasn't been in it every now and then, like i'll cover a topic usually try to avoid ones that i think are going to be like, i want to see the reaction of the community that they will be picked apart, yeah. But this one i just thought i wanted to talk about that would be interesting and and so i reported it pretty straightforward but there's a there's a huge backstory here that i was not aware of the time that this came out on wednesday which is not a big deal because if that whatever happens we just talk about it the next week so here we are so ok so oh yeah yes so that the the scientists who published the paper essentially the legitimate part of what they did was they they used a new technique for imaging living tissues that could we could see that could visualize the's interstitial fluid cavities better than you can see them during usual slide preparation which you fix the tissue and that sort of evaporates the fluid it draws out sucks out the fluid publish and evaporated withdraws it out and sew thie tissue is then relatively collapsed and so they said that they quote unquote discovered this new structure which they were calling a new organ so it's a few issues with that and ah you know we brought it but at the time that calling it an organ of course is arbitrary how do you define an organ doesn't seem any less reasonable than calling the skin and oregon way like do a news item like when i first started on the show about how in oregon gets to be named in oregon that sounds vaguely familiar i feel like that and it was it's like just a lot of politics it's very political but that's kind of a side issue whether that you would consider this an organ or not that is obviously a matter of definition a lot of of the scientific community respond to this by saying yes this is really nothing new i mean the imaging yeah that's the interesting bit but the fact that there's interstitial fluid in the connective tissue nothing new yeah like this didn't just appear like we never knew this is in the body before because if you said that you said that when the when the tissues studied those that you know the in artifact of the would be that that stuff would disappear so we didn't really know the extent of it well yeah that's the that's the new baby is the is the way they were able to image it but then even like pathologists i said well we really we knew that about that artifact and that there was fluid in these tissue so this really isn't as new is the author's air spinning it so i guess it's just a difference in spin about like how significant this is those two issues like how new this is and whether you consider it an oregon not even the biggest part of the revelations that really out yeah those are just sort of interesting i was like ok, they're overhyping it and maybe it's in oregon, maybe it's not ok. And that yeah, that that that's very common to see that a lot of scientists and there and there press offices and their universities, whatever. There's a tendency to over hype the significance of a new study which tends to exaggerate our previous ignorance. And then they also hype the significant seven meaning, like by calling it a new organ that's all pretty par for the course. All right, but here's, the rial here's, the rial thing that i did know about when i went this came out. But that is good stuff since stopped agents said, is that the author is a huge component of wu, a huge fan of deepak chopra on he's using this to say, this is how acupuncture works. Oh, no talk about on and then a bunch of people and then they talked about it on science friday. They talked about it on signs friday by riff lehto fail huge i restaurant, i think feel i give us a report about it. So of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with acupuncture. First of all, do you know how acupuncture works ? It does. Doesn't find three thousand. Studies plus and you decades of research it's pretty a few things were pretty clear. One is that meridians and an acupuncture points don't exist. It doesn't matter where you start with the body or even if you stick them in the body that any alleged effect from accurate picture just a theatrical placebo that that's been pretty clearly established. There isn't a single indication for which there is robust clinical evidence that of a of an actual effect beyond placebo with that you puncture but it is a huge scam, it is absolutely a huge scam and the research is it's a really a perfect example of pseudo science. It has all of the features of pseudo science that we talk about on the show in terms of cherry picking evidence, not properly controlling for variables over interpreting studies, not doing proper controls, not really adequately assessing blinding there's it's basically rich you know the proponents are trying really hard to present noise as if it's, dana and there's just tons of p hacking going on on really essentially this is just a packaging of an elaborate placebo that is all that it is and there's basically no plausibility here, but but, you know, even for just thinking about sticking needles in this can forget about the acupuncture points in and that that is pure magical nonsense, so buddy thing is every time something physiological is like stuff is happening or anything new anatomical has shown some clowns is this is how acupuncture works right ? It's like every time we see a star in the universe that we don't we can't explain like that's aliens it's the same thing you know it's just a knee jerk argument for make parents so there is nothing in this to the study the study itself doesn't mention acupuncture there's nothing in it about it at all it is completely gratuitous and you know it it's meaningless but the author you know, of the study is using this as an opportunity just to promote his particular you know woo that he he is apparently enamored of so and they actually and the science itself isn't as good as was initially presented either making i think the image ing technique is that is the one little legit a bit in all of this but you know, massaging this all into oh a new organ we didn't know was there and maybe this is like we'll explain all kinds of things like how cancer spreads and how acupuncture works you know after even just a week of actual scientists with the appropriate expertise looking at the study and the claims like mathis is nothing this is a nothing burger and this guy's totally overselling uh these results how acupuncture we're now acupuncturist wow who would have thought called the perpetual motion machine you know you have rights like it's, like a physicist finding something to go. Maybe this is where free energy comes from, you know, it's the same same crime. So, ira, ira, what ? Our eyes. Yeah, office of ira has a he's he's, good science communicator. In general, he has a fairly consistent blind spot when it comes to alternative medicine, not a woman not uncommon, because understanding why alternative medicine is pseudoscience takes a particular set of skills, right, a particular set of expertise that not many people have. --> | <!-- The next one is i got a the half of brazilian emails about thie interstitial in science fiction topping from last week. Yes, with this one definitely needs an update. So if you recall, one of the science fiction items last week was that scientists have discovered a new organ that that is a syria's of fluid filled cavities under the skin and in the connective tissue. And that was science. And what, of course, has been a lot of developments on this story since since we recorded the show last week. And of course, as we remind our listeners, three days goes by between the time that we record the show and when the show comes out and stuff happens in those three days. First, this is a this is not a news item, stay silent or fiction item, which means that the item just came out and yeah, there really hasn't been in it every now and then, like i'll cover a topic usually try to avoid ones that i think are going to be like, i want to see the reaction of the community that they will be picked apart, yeah. But this one i just thought i wanted to talk about that would be interesting and and so i reported it pretty straightforward but there's a there's a huge backstory here that i was not aware of the time that this came out on wednesday which is not a big deal because if that whatever happens we just talk about it the next week so here we are so ok so oh yeah yes so that the the scientists who published the paper essentially the legitimate part of what they did was they they used a new technique for imaging living tissues that could we could see that could visualize the's interstitial fluid cavities better than you can see them during usual slide preparation which you fix the tissue and that sort of evaporates the fluid it draws out sucks out the fluid publish and evaporated withdraws it out and sew thie tissue is then relatively collapsed and so they said that they quote unquote discovered this new structure which they were calling a new organ so it's a few issues with that and ah you know we brought it but at the time that calling it an organ of course is arbitrary how do you define an organ doesn't seem any less reasonable than calling the skin and oregon way like do a news item like when i first started on the show about how in oregon gets to be named in oregon that sounds vaguely familiar i feel like that and it was it's like just a lot of politics it's very political but that's kind of a side issue whether that you would consider this an organ or not that is obviously a matter of definition a lot of of the scientific community respond to this by saying yes this is really nothing new i mean the imaging yeah that's the interesting bit but the fact that there's interstitial fluid in the connective tissue nothing new yeah like this didn't just appear like we never knew this is in the body before because if you said that you said that when the when the tissues studied those that you know the in artifact of the would be that that stuff would disappear so we didn't really know the extent of it well yeah that's the that's the new baby is the is the way they were able to image it but then even like pathologists i said well we really we knew that about that artifact and that there was fluid in these tissue so this really isn't as new is the author's air spinning it so i guess it's just a difference in spin about like how significant this is those two issues like how new this is and whether you consider it an oregon not even the biggest part of the revelations that really out yeah those are just sort of interesting i was like ok, they're overhyping it and maybe it's in oregon, maybe it's not ok. And that yeah, that that that's very common to see that a lot of scientists and there and there press offices and their universities, whatever. There's a tendency to over hype the significance of a new study which tends to exaggerate our previous ignorance. And then they also hype the significant seven meaning, like by calling it a new organ that's all pretty par for the course. All right, but here's, the rial here's, the rial thing that i did know about when i went this came out. But that is good stuff since stopped agents said, is that the author is a huge component of wu, a huge fan of deepak chopra on he's using this to say, this is how acupuncture works. Oh, no talk about on and then a bunch of people and then they talked about it on science friday. They talked about it on signs friday by riff lehto fail huge i restaurant, i think feel i give us a report about it. So of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with acupuncture. First of all, do you know how acupuncture works ? It does. Doesn't find three thousand. Studies plus and you decades of research it's pretty a few things were pretty clear. One is that meridians and an acupuncture points don't exist. It doesn't matter where you start with the body or even if you stick them in the body that any alleged effect from accurate picture just a theatrical placebo that that's been pretty clearly established. There isn't a single indication for which there is robust clinical evidence that of a of an actual effect beyond placebo with that you puncture but it is a huge scam, it is absolutely a huge scam and the research is it's a really a perfect example of pseudo science. It has all of the features of pseudo science that we talk about on the show in terms of cherry picking evidence, not properly controlling for variables over interpreting studies, not doing proper controls, not really adequately assessing blinding there's it's basically rich you know the proponents are trying really hard to present noise as if it's, dana and there's just tons of p hacking going on on really essentially this is just a packaging of an elaborate placebo that is all that it is and there's basically no plausibility here, but but, you know, even for just thinking about sticking needles in this can forget about the acupuncture points in and that that is pure magical nonsense, so buddy thing is every time something physiological is like stuff is happening or anything new anatomical has shown some clowns is this is how acupuncture works right ? It's like every time we see a star in the universe that we don't we can't explain like that's aliens it's the same thing you know it's just a knee jerk argument for make parents so there is nothing in this to the study the study itself doesn't mention acupuncture there's nothing in it about it at all it is completely gratuitous and you know it it's meaningless but the author you know, of the study is using this as an opportunity just to promote his particular you know woo that he he is apparently enamored of so and they actually and the science itself isn't as good as was initially presented either making i think the image ing technique is that is the one little legit a bit in all of this but you know, massaging this all into oh a new organ we didn't know was there and maybe this is like we'll explain all kinds of things like how cancer spreads and how acupuncture works you know after even just a week of actual scientists with the appropriate expertise looking at the study and the claims like mathis is nothing this is a nothing burger and this guy's totally overselling uh these results how acupuncture we're now acupuncturist wow who would have thought called the perpetual motion machine you know you have rights like it's, like a physicist finding something to go. Maybe this is where free energy comes from, you know, it's the same same crime. So, ira, ira, what ? Our eyes. Yeah, office of ira has a he's he's, good science communicator. In general, he has a fairly consistent blind spot when it comes to alternative medicine, not a woman not uncommon, because understanding why alternative medicine is pseudoscience takes a particular set of skills, right, a particular set of expertise that not many people have. --> | ||
{{top}}{{anchor|interview}} <!-- leave this anchor directly above the corresponding section that follows --> | {{top}}{{anchor|interview}} <!-- leave this anchor directly above the corresponding section that follows --> | ||
== Interview with Mark Lynas <small>(1:01:57)</small> == | == Interview with Mark Lynas <small>(1:01:57)</small> == | ||
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Revision as of 06:48, 17 March 2023
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| SGU Episode 665 |
|---|
| April 7th 2018 |
 |
Marsbees: a swarm of robot bees that could fly in the thin Martian atmosphere and deliver information from their sensors. |
| Skeptical Rogues |
| S: Steven Novella |
B: Bob Novella |
C: Cara Santa Maria |
J: Jay Novella |
E: Evan Bernstein |
| Guest |
ML: Mark Lynas, British author |
| Quote of the Week |
Do not train children to learning by force and harshness, but direct them to it by what amuses their minds, so that you may be better able to discover with accuracy the peculiar bent of the genius of each. |
| Links |
| Download Podcast |
| Show Notes |
| Forum Discussion |
Introduction, Cara back from the Amazon
Voice-over: You're listening to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe, your escape to reality.
What's the Word (7:22)
News Items
S:
B:
C:
J:
E:
(laughs) (laughter) (applause) [inaudible]
Cell Phones and Cancer (13:43)
Robot Bees on Mars (27:18)
- NASA funds project to study feasibility of using robot bees to study Mars from a new perspective [2]
Largest Dinosaurs (37:00)
Who's That Noisy? (44:31)
Answer to previous Noisy:
New Noisy (47:39)
[Groaning animal cries and braying]
Questions and Emails
Correction: Math Correction (50:16)
- F of Y/F – 1 = Y/((1-.3)*Y) – 1 = 1/.7 – 1 = 42.9%.
Followup: Interstitium (53:09)
Interview with Mark Lynas (1:01:57)
- Mark Lynas, scientific environmentalist and eco-activist
Science or Fiction (1:27:16)
Theme: Animals of the Amazon
Item #1: The pirarucu is a large carnivorous fish that grows up to 3 meters long and has teeth on its tongue.[4]
Item #2: The Cyclosa spider is tiny, but it will build a large decoy spider replica in its web out of leaves, twigs, and dead insects.† [6]
Item #3: Pink river dolphins get their pink color from the shrimp that is their primary food.[7]
| Answer | Item |
|---|---|
| Fiction | Pink river dolphins |
| Science | Fish with tongue teeth |
| Science | Large decoy spider replica |
| Host | Result |
|---|---|
| Steve | win |
| Rogue | Guess |
|---|---|
Jay | Large decoy spider replica |
Bob | Large decoy spider replica |
Evan | Large decoy spider replica |
Cara | Pink river dolphins |
Voice-over: It's time for Science or Fiction.
Jay's Response
Bob's Response
Evan's Response
Cara's Response
Steve Explains Item #1
Steve Explains Item #2
Steve Explains Item #3
Skeptical Quote of the Week (1:39:24)
Do not train children to learning by force and harshness, but direct them to it by what amuses their minds, so that you may be better able to discover with accuracy the peculiar bent of the genius of each.
– Plato, from The Republic (~428-347 BC), ancient Greek philosopher
Announcements
Book Progress (1:39:53)
NECSS 2018 (1:43:49)
S: Skeptics' Guide to the Universe is produced by SGU Productions, dedicated to promoting science and critical thinking. For more information, visit us at theskepticsguide.org. Send your questions to info@theskepticsguide.org. And, if you would like to support the show and all the work that we do, go to patreon.com/SkepticsGuide and consider becoming a patron and becoming part of the SGU community. Our listeners and supporters are what make SGU possible.
Today I Learned
- Fact/Description, possibly with an article reference[8]
- Fact/Description
- Fact/Description
References
- ↑ Science-Based Medicine: The Nation indulges in fear mongering about cell phones and cancer
- ↑ NASA: NASA funds project to study feasibility of using robot bees to study Mars from a new perspective
- ↑ National Geographic: Huge Dinosaur Footprints Discovered on Scottish Coast
- ↑ Britannica: pirarucu
- ↑ NatGeo: These Spiders Build Decoy Dummies of Themselves
- ↑ Wired (article 6 years older than NatGeo video): Spider That Builds Its Own Spider Decoys Discovered
- ↑ Dolphinspedia: Why Are Pink Dolphins Pink?
- ↑ [url_for_TIL publication: title]
Vocabulary
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