SGU Episode 410

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SGU Episode 410
25th May 2013
(brief caption for the episode icon)
SGU 409                      SGU 411
Skeptical Rogues
S: Steven Novella
B: Bob Novella
R: Rebecca Watson
J: Jay Novella
E: Evan Bernstein
Guest
RS: Richard Saunders
Quote of the Week
What do you think science is? There's nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. Which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?
Steven Novella on Reddit
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Show Notes
Forum Discussion

Introduction

You're listening to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe, your escape to reality.

S: Hello and welcome to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. Today is Wednesday, May 22, 2013 and this is your host, Steven Novella. Joining me this week are Bob Novella...

B: Hey, everybody.

S: Rebecca Watson...

R: Hello, everyone.

S: Jay Novella...

J: Hey, guys.

S: Evan Bernstein...

E: Good evening, everyone.

S: And we have a special guest rogue this week, all the way from Australia: Richard Saunders!

RS: And in my case, it's good morning everybody.

S: (chuckling) Good morning, Richard.

All: Richard!

RS: Hey!

E: Top of the morning.

R: Oh, see, that's what we've been forgetting, Evan, when you do your greetings from around the world, you should have been doing them in the local time zone.

E: You think so?

RS: Oh yeah; that's always a good idea.

E: Or I could just do what I've been doing. Yeah! I could do that too.

S: So, Richard, how are you been?

RS: I've been really well; I've been traveling and in fact, I had the great pleasure of bumping into a certain Rebecca Watson a few weeks ago in the Czech Republic.

R: That's right; that was a pleasant surprise.

RS: It was great. We were both the guests of a scientific film festival called AFO in Olomouc in the Czech Republic. Academia Film Festival in Olomouc. And it was just a really fantastic time. So um... yeah. I've been busy; I've been traveling; I went to Norway; I went to Ireland; I went to the UK giving talks in all those countries. And before long I'll be getting on a plane heading for TAM Las Vegas.

S: Excellent. That'll be the next time that we'll see you, in Las Vegas. Looking forward to it.

RS: Yeah. Looking forward to that.

S: So, you've had a lot of—you've had some projects you've been working on, too, as well as traveling around the world.

RS: I'm always working on projects, Steve; you know me. I think, personally, the biggest thing I've been working on was my very own radio adventure or audio adventure, so to speak, inspired by the good old-fashioned radio adventures of years gone past and I finally wrote it, produced it, and got the Skeptic Zone gang together. And it's called "Solar Flare", it's a big sort of adventurous space opera starring none other than Jay Novella as a special guest villain.

R: Ooh.

J: (laughs) Yes. So Richard emails me with dialogue and he goes... he gives me a very short description, right? He didn't really want to go into too much detail. I was trying to get some feedback, Richard, if you remember, I'm like, "what do you want?" and you're like, "just do it".

RS: (laughs) Yes. Well, I didn't want to give too much away.

J: I put on, like, a voice that I thought would fit the genre and I... after I heard it produced and edited in, you know, I didn't even have anybody else to play off of, it was just me pretending in my head that I'm hearing the other person's lines. And it was so much fun!

R: You're used to hearing other people's voices in your head, though.

J: Oh yeah, believe me, I don't... it really wasn't a deficit for me at all; I'm really—

S: I like to pretend out of my head. That's always better.

J: But I... I listen to an early cut and I love it. I mean, Richard, you really did something excellent. I think the whole project is awesome and you had... now, who did you have on your end do voice acting?

RS: We had everybody involved in the Skeptic Zone; as many people... Dr. Rachie, of course; Eran Segev, Jo Benhamu, Stephan. All the people who work—Maynard—on the Skeptic Zone—I got as many of them together in one room as possible, 'cause you can't get everybody together in one room... on the same day. And for a couple of hours, we recorded dialogue into some good microphones. And then I got the rest of the cast scattered around the world, including yourself and other people in the United States to send in their lines, like you did. And then it was up to me to put them all together; it was like a giant jigsaw puzzle. Add sound effects; add music... it took months to put it all together, but finally I did it. Something I've always wanted to do: make a radio audio adventure. And it's got excellent reactions; people love it; they're writing in, telling me that certain parts of their anatomy had fallen off from laughing... while they're listening to it.

R: Uhhhh. I don't think that's supposed to happen. I don't want to alarm anybody.

J: It's that funny, Rebecca, OK? Especially the part I'm in. It's that good.

B: Well, Richard, how could we hear it?

RS: If you go to www.skepticzone.tv, which is the web page for the Skeptic Zone podcast, the Podcast for Science and Reason from Sydney, Australia, and scroll down just a little bit, you'll see there it is: "Solar Flare: a Space Adventure."

E: Sweet.

This Day in Skepticism (04:35)

May 25 - Geek Pride Day

R: Hey, speaking of, happy dork day, everybody.

J: (laughs)

B: Dork day?

E: Excuse me?

S: Dork day?

E: What part of the body?

R: I'm sorry. I mean, happy Geek Pride Day, everybody.

RS: That's better.

E: That's—that's the—

S: Geek Pride?

R: I don't know; Geek Pride is a bit funny because, I mean, maybe in the 80's or something, the idea of geek pride had some sort of necessity, but today the geeks rule the world, so you don't really need a Geek Pride Day.

J: Rebecca, I have a question for you.

R: Yes.

J: Are all geeks dorks or do you have to be a geek to be a dork?

R: No. Not all geeks are dorks.

B: What about nerds?

R: And in fact, most geeks these days are not dorks.

J: OK, are all dorks geeks?

R/RS: No.

R: Because I think geek requires a vast amount of knowledge about a particular subject—

E: "Dork" is more of a derogatory term.

R: —but dork does not.

RS: I think there were dorks long before there were geeks.

B: The real battle is between geeks and nerds.

R: Yes.

B: Those are the real heavyweights.

R: But that's a... we could do an entire podcast on taxonomy of...

(laughter)

R: ...of nerds and geeks and dorks. So, May 25th is Geek Pride Day, which started around 2006, like the first Geek Pride celebration was like a Spanish day called Dia del Orgullo Friki—I completely butchered that; I apologize to all of our Spanish speakers in the audience. But it's—May 25th is notable for several reasons. Number one, it was the day in 1977 that Star Wars: A New Hope was released.

S: Or as we know it back then: Star Wars.

E: Right, Star Wars.

R: Indeed. It's also Towel Day, which is probably most appropriate for listeners to this podcast. Towel Day comes from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy books; the idea being that today you must... you should carry your towel around with you at all times because it's the handiest tool you could possibly own, according to Douglas Adams.

J: Well, Rebecca, it's not just that; you have to always know where your towel is.

S: It's critical.

R: Well, I mean, if you're carrying it with you.

E: My favorite line from that part of the book says, "any man who can hitch the length and breadth of the Galaxy, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through and still know where his towel is is clearly a man to be reckoned with."

B: And don't forget the best towels are soaked in nutrients and have little tools and gadgets embedded in them. Those are the high-end ones.

R: There's one other reason why May 25th is considered Geek Pride Day, and that is because it is the Glorious 25th of May, which is referenced in Terry Pratchett's series Discworld, which I haven't read yet and it's on my list; like, one of my next books to read, so no spoilers.

S: They all die at the end.

R: Aaaaah.

B: No, they don't. It's all a dream.

S: Turns out they were dead the whole time. How many movies can you say that about? Well, happy Geek Day, everyone. Rebecca, when you sent me this item, I mis-read it as Greek Pride Day, and I'm like, "what the hell does Star Wars have to do with Greek Pride Day?"

R: That's actually like next week, though; I'm not even kidding. I was just talking to my friend about how in Buffalo there's a Geek Pride Festival thing coming up and it's a lot of fun because they set cheese on fire.

S: Flaming cheese. Got it.

News Items

McCormick Sentenced (07:52)

• BBC News: Fake bomb detector seller James McCormick jailed

S: All right. Well, Jay, you're going to give us a quick update on the fake bomb detector sellers con artists scumbag.

J: Yeah, we talked about this three or four episodes ago. The guy that faked these bomb detectors that ended up being fancy-looking divining rods, James McCormick, we finally found out that he's going to jail for 10 years. I don't think 10 years is even close to long enough for what this guy actually did. So let me give—for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, real quick... James McCormick decided that he was going to take a novelty golf ball... like, finder—it's like a joke gift that you would give somebody; they actually found some place to buy these in bulk—and he modified them, put some stickers on them and then ended up selling them to governments as bomb detectors. And then what he did, once he started making some money is he made his own and it looked a lot more robust and a lot cooler but the bottom line is that it didn't really do any—this new one didn't do anything either, and what his whole premise was... if you take a piece of the substance—a bomb, whatever it is—money that you're looking for, whatever you're trying to find with the detector, and you put it in a jar along with one of these stickers that supposedly absorbs the essence of whatever the substance is, then you take that piece of paper or the sticker and you put it inside the detector, the detector would then be able to detect that substance. Now, when you go to the airport and they do this to you, they rub you down with that little swab and they put it in a machine, that machine is actually smelling the swab and seeing if there's any molecules of bomb residue or whatever they're looking for on it and they can look for a lot of different things with that. This machine isn't doing that. See, this machine doesn't have any electronic devices in it. This machine is not doing anything. It's a divining rod. And he was selling these to governments under the idea that they could detect anything, virtually anything, at huge distances; you know, miles underground, and whatever it is that you wanted. It's an amazingly versatile machine taht could do all these different things. Well, turns out that people actually died because of this guy. These were being used at checkpoints that indeed had bombs exploded and people were injured or died because of this. So some of these quotes that came from it were, "Judge Richard Hone said, 'You are the driving force and sole director behind this fraud. The device was useless, the profit outrageous, and your culpability as a fraudster has to be considered to be of the highest order.'" So they weren't kidding when they passed sentence on this guy. A lot of a lot of people were blogging about this and chiming in; there was a lot of people upset about it and I actually, like I said earlier, I don't think 10 years is even close enough. It's great and they did seize his money and you know, people are getting compensated that were injured and governments that spent a lot of money on this are being compensated, but 10 years?

B: And Jay, that's the maximum sentence. That surprised me. That—I mean, you could make an argument that he was directly related to the injuring and killing hundreds, if not thousands of people, and that's the maximum?

S: He clearly wasn't convicted for that. He was only convicted, I guess, for the fraud; not for the death of people... or death or injury of people who suffered because of those detectors were in use.

B: They should've charged him with more, then.

S: Well, in his the sentencing, the judge did note that this is the maximum sentence he can give and he justified that. He also noted that while it can't be proven that his actions led—directly led to any death or injury, it is probable that it did. So perhaps that was the reason that they weren't able to legally prove that he directly caused any deaths. And also it should be noted that he's only going to spend five of those ten years in custody and then five on parole. Unless, or course, he violates his parole.

RS: Jay, one of the things I find most interesting about this sort of story is, because this is something I've been studying for many years, ever since I've been into skepticism, is the water divining action, or what we call the ideomotor action, is why the water divining rods move and twitch and swing and all the rest of it. And what is fascinating to me is that there would have been soldiers trained, if you could use that term, into using these devices who would've been also convinced that the things worked, because they'd walk along and the rods would be moving back and forth. It's a really interesting area of psychology.

J: Yeah, I agree. I thought about that, Richard, you know, when you have these people that are actually using the device, walking up and down lanes of cars and they're saying that they're getting an effect, but after a certain amount of time of false positives, you'd figure that they would even come to the conclusion that's BS.

S: But Jay, the device always works, except when it doesn't.

R: And there's no witnesses.

E: That's ironclad in a court.

S: It's superstitious thinking; I mean, or confirmation bias. You can convince yourself that it works even when there's absolutely no effect whatsoever.

RS: There are many arguments along that line; I've heard people say, "well, if it only works 10% of the time, then it works" and arguments like this.

B: Below chance.

J: One more quick quote that I think paints a really clear picture here of what's going on. Detective Superintendent Nigel Rock was talking about what the judge was saying inside the courtroom and he said, "And finally, and perhaps most importantly, he has shown no shame, he has shown no remorse, and he carried on with complete cavalier disregard for the consequences of his con-trick."

S: Yeah. In other words, he is a psychopath.

RS: Yeah.

S: All right. Well, you know, at least he got 10 years. It's better than nothing.

RS: I wonder if he's a naturopath too.

Meteroid hits Moon (13:17)

• Space.com: Huge Rock Crashes Into Moon, Sparks Giant Explosion

going to tell us about an asteroid smacking into the police I sure did you guys did you see everywhere everywhere I look like to stay in my face but last March Westmark a meteoroid struck the moon visible to the naked eye if you happen to be looking at the right place at the right time I keep things like this happen to keep thinking about washing would be if you could actually just happen to be looking up and saw that and I of course I was thinking today I was pretty please no psychics predictions this up now is the right thing I normally take it one second something like this just like twice twice that would be very compelling and it's about that yeah um you guys catch yourself when you're looking at the moon that you're you know the back your mind like what if there's an impact Twilight while I'm with you I think about that all yeah the world so what's the status on the status with the media Roy sure you guys know the difference between between a meteoroid is a is in space a meteor as we didn't hear any to write it on the ground meteoroid was reportedly decided the small Boulder about a foot 4 30 meter across 88 pounds I called a big rock with you I would call that a small what what's the cutoff for see if it'll definition of jacket but I put across to be a big rock in it tomorrow AM. I love I love that name it was going I hope you're okay 56,000 miles an hour or 90 thousand okay 90,000 climate urs it was really looking and I often say to help a lot of kinetic energy now she thinks about 520 TNT so what yeah pretty pretty big on the go to video a video of it online to go to check it out it was visible to the naked eye in fact that it was great to be a fourth magnitude star and I'm going to be speaking going to the Greeks first class 5 stars by the brightness in this way I'm usually naked eye to practice is the one in the sky which is 6 and we can divide adapter that system in extended a bit so what you see what do you think what do you guys think public and see if the human eye can just barely make out I beg to six star what do you think about 625 360 30 degrees in front of me and I just want to know that each each subsequent number is 2.5 times dinner or try to go in for a example Sirius brightest star I said negative 1.4

The full moon is a negative 12.6 and the Sun is a negative 2628 so very very bright now the explosion is so its different on the moon it would have been on the earth right because there's no average for gas is off to a great on the moon I'll be sleep to the photons at work that we saw from the superheated papers in molten rock the week knighted atmosphere so disappointing headlines explosion of the most watched it and I was like um yeah that one pic sell it looks like I missed a computer movie I care now it was actually on over saturate the mean this type of event is unprecedented terms of the month and this is the only because anyone can see it but also biggest impact ever observed by the order of magnitude 10 times brighter than any recorded since the beginning I'm still looking up for these events starting in 2005 ADC about 300 vs a year so I guess that would be that there's what 610 did you get back in the Dark Side of the Moon to 600 600 Benz like that the price in years they looked not only because it's for the safety of future and I hadn't considered that but yeah if you can be living on the moon and I hope someday soon people will be you can need to know what you're dealing with tax and ironically big impacts like this they aren't even the main concern for these future happens if the base to base alpha right of the tiny millimeter size in taxes that are due to winter it's going to be really nasty micrometeorites they're much more common as you might imagine the holy spaces your habitat module very easily so scary for that reason they would probably have to wait another week to a very easy snuggles up underground if they could escape them and I recently came across this hole in one of the solar panels of the space station cause my one of these micrometer right things are right now she's really really do you went and I was messing that was interesting intervent which part of the shower of a meteorite that hit the Moon and Earth all around the same time and they calculated it worth it and they were I did almost identical or between the Earth and yes work out so this is this is to be a swarm of the right said they could happen annually for next year you know that you're going to be looking eye for this kind of thing on the pattern so they could help out today they were doing about India in the moon dennis is in the future so close up believe that the meteoroid was in fact a small boulder, do you know what the cut-off is no I don't obviously 256 millimeters

Damn what a little less than a foot in diameter I disagree with that entire why do you determine sex shop that blows older lobby out of washing my rock you like a lady or something what do you call a rock that is 60 between 64 and 256 millimeters where to find rock stone cold in a boulder a stone oh I like that test is at work I'll come from uh no I don't know why 64 256 there um 256 multiples of 2 you know how you too just like just like you whatever 24 to 23 greatest hits that's crazy talk

DSM-5 (20:20)

• NeuroLogica: The Genetics of Mental Illness
• Science-Based Medicine: DSM-5 and the Fight for the Heart of Psychiatry

on TV you guys really with the DSM the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual yes I am my doctor says I have a very fine.. To deserve it in the news recently because version 5 was just released by the American Psychological Association and Addison's been shrouded in controversy for decades basically this is the official list of mental illnesses and disorders of diagnoses essentially their clinical diagnosis determined by a list of symptoms signs and symptoms and fifty came to standard that insurance companies use for reimbursement FTA uses for indications of medications and has also um I become important findings of research as well be doing research into mental illness I'm traditionally studies which followed DSM diagnosis like for example schizophrenia you would research into something associated with the official DS and diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia or a compulsive disorder were major depression or whatever time a revision comes along there's always a lot of discussion about which diseases were created which ones were eliminated which ones for combined or separate it out by for example this time around shooting is now its own disorder oh wow the part of obsessive-compulsive disorder do you think it is as an effective reality TV series was wondering about that has some TV shows yeah I don't know what's happening really in the industry at the moment that yet popular TV shows damn that's a weird coincidence they made I'd drinking wine schedule the dress sitting around with a bunch of other women with big boobs like that its own Real Housewives yes thank you guys are tired of waiting I hope I helped clean up an apartment of somebody died in order oh em gee that was a sight to behold you too is she going to TV when you walking through it did you give me some details basically you would walk in and do what you have to wait to the kitchen and it was a pathway to the couch and she be and that was pretty much it you really want to do too much more that place in the bedroom bedroom is covered in like 45 feet high on the bed everywhere days and days to clean all that stuff out it's amazing what people can get you doing with the show me this time around more than any other release there is another layer to the controversy surrounding the DSM in that is the entire theoretical basis for the DSM itself not the

Implementation for the execution of the DSM in terms of which diagnoses to to have but just the whole entire idea of of facing a mental illness diagnosis on a list of clinical signs and symptoms that are determined by consensus of expert opinion in fact the director of the National Institute of Mental Health Services really I think what you want a controversy this time around Thomas Insel put out a statement saying that the DNA NH is no longer going to use the DSM when determining research protocols for for mental illness what are they going to use they're going to you something else okay this is really interesting because there's multiple layers Halloween how much really going to be a lot of time talking about this one issue is how evidence-based vs opinion based are the specific diagnoses and critics argue that is largely opinion based and not terribly evidence-based however would put practitioners say is that people actually doing it is that deliberately pregnant widgets it's the clinical book it's not really meant to guide research is it so is it is a prep reg matic guideline for clinicians to help patients and is actually more true than you might imagine across the board medicine one thing that's been interesting is the psychiatry Christmas tree tonight years have been using this whole episode 2 year to launch in other cities in campaign against mental illness in again psychiatry my criticism of their rhetoric leave lots of criticism what they do is they Dalis criticisms of Psychiatry as if any specific the claim that they are unique to psychiatry which is just incredibly disingenuous indoor night Eve because there's none of the criticisms are you need to psychiatry the only exist to some degree in the rest of medicine and is and is a conflict between like real disease entities and pragmatic disease categories exist in the rest of medicine as well it in fact we often don't really care as much about giving a patient a specific diagnosis a specific pathologic pathophysiological diagnosis if that diagnosis does not specifically to a treatment were interested in is how is the patient presenting and what's the probability of respurces benefit for an intervention in an intervention includes a diagnostic test message to treatment so we end up treating based upon respurces benefit of how patients present not on the Evo she was a very specific disease and has a very specific treatment obviously that also occurs in medicine but that's probably more of an exception than a rule

And psychiatry is no different really bend the rest of medicine in this regard to the DS and maybe an extreme manifestation of this words all signed something basic clinical categories based impregnated Lee Designs for treatment rather than trying to identify specific biological entities but that's not necessarily a bad thing depending on its purpose now we flip it to the NIH does the research organization they want to do research into mental illness and in the director Thomas basically saying that this doesn't work for research that these entities are not necessarily even valid biologically and therefore when we try to do jeans studies or brain studies to try to figure out for example what does CD is and OCD is not a real category: a real biological category just a pragmatic clinical category then that Jews are researched a failure because we are studying something doesn't really exist so what she's recommending is actually stepping back from the DSM from these pregnant a clinical psychoses and trying to deconstruct how patient mental illness what are signs and symptoms are to try to relate them to add more fundamental you're a logical functions and then try to really like a few is nothing short of completely re categorizing all of mental illness along biological lines and then using that as a guide towards genetic and your scientific studies function right which is fine I think its a research approach that's all fine if you remember we recently interviewed Heather Berlin who does a CD research is no scientist and that's exactly what she said

Is that were trying to get really reduction is to try to figure out what fundamental unit of neurological function of behavior is really going on here what's the neurological corlateanu in time with that and let's try to study that rather than studying entire clinical syndromes with your mission ash Ave probably many different things hey discussion very interesting I think though what happened to miss a thing Thomas into way too far in his criticism of the DSN dad did misunderstand the context of the DS and it is a clinical document not really supposed to be a guide for research on so I think it's appropriate residency do you some sort of purpose because it is more prepared to say that it shouldn't be using the strait jacket for research it probably shouldn't even be use a straight jacket for your insurance company reimbursement maybe not even FDA drug indication that old does need to be rethought I also totally agree that the DSM diagnoses may not be biologically real entities discrete entities and their van but we know that you know that clinical diagnosis are placeholders that's what we call something until we understand the pathophysiology and what's interesting is that if you look at past back at the last hundred years of medical history this happens over and over again we started out with a clinical scheme of diagnosis just describing what we see I might get tons of examples in the two black p**** right about this to anyone for example is muscular dystrophies you have entities like fascio scapulohumeral muscular dystrophy or live in girdle muscular dystrophy just describing where people are weak I miss is it completely defined clinically insane heritage age of onset Italian hair patterns of inheritance and pattern of weakness another new clinical signs occur NFS for 50 60 70 years we start to actually understand the genetic mutations and how those genetic mutations translate into specific dystrophies a lot of those messages free categorized along genetic line now we turn now we have to be categorized in based upon their genetic mutation not their clinical presentation so the same thing will probably eventually happen more and more to psychiatry just hasn't happened yet again so make appointment with beef in promising for years a decade biological markers blood test to see how this person actually has autism or schitozophrenia

Just hasn't happened yet cancel that appointment with we've been promising for years a decade biological markers blood test to see how this person actually has autism earth friendly a supposed to just wanted to just not coming he's blaming that on the DSM I think it's more that because mental illness is horrific Lee complicated I think these are there were not going to have clean categories because there are no clean categories they don't exist did he said he's on how early I see at the edges think about the controversy that we had over the categorization of Pluto a planet burst 12th planet & trying to decide which line is between a planet and 12th planet right up to 5000 that's what you're talking about with mental disorders but its not only are they are hundreds of disorders such as one thing cleaner to clean it but there's multiple variables by which you can you think about it to find them and they don't a break out in any kind of clean way so you have all this overlap and all this fuzziness Anders just know there's never going to be a clean system I think of things at the extreme biological into the spectra were 50 years were going to have a completely revamped biological scheme of defining meant to live I think that rather go eat you always always going to be clinical criteria mixed in there because these about we may find genetic predisposition to do I don't think we're going to find genetic one gene mutation one disease kind of genetic disease activity found most of those other many biological markers and maybe a summarized markers that tell you would choose likely to have a disease or the probability of having a diagnosis the clinical manifestations you're going to be so variable that it's still going to find any easy categorization system and while I don't think I don't think the DSM is going to survive without massive changes over the next 50 years me to give it is a very much a dynamic document to change all the time I think that it will include more and more logical and no scientific markers were never going to completely get away from clinical diagnosis so it's easier to get very interesting science in general how do we define think how to categorize things ended medicine you know what is the approach that we take this so-called Dr House approach is very far from what actually happens in medicine most of the time country that one magical very specific diagnosis and want to find it we can share it you know that that happens but it's much more the exception to the rule it's more that we just take this is what may be going on and then everything else is probability respurces benefit from there Stephen city you using terms like entities I know why you using me to get the new context home discussion in the back of my mind the arguments from the Scientologists who are of course the enemies of psychiatry

I am very deze the Titans which are the root cause of mental illness in things like this in this ongoing discussions Indian medicine generally speaking another Aries signs to is a wonderful opening the enemies of reason to say hi you see they can't even get it right change them I know they don't know what to exactly and that's what you're doing this in all look the same page is every decision I went there to show don't know what you're talking about if you look at the broader context you're a pretty comfortable with medicine what it seems like is that if you're being optimistic anyway is that perhaps run the cost of Psychiatry transitioning from the descriptive phase which all medical diagnoses passed through the descriptive essays to the Santa Claus the biological phase and then and how far we can take that remains to be seen worry I understand something about cause and effect and pathophysiology but I'm always going to be really complicated with mental illnesses and differential for today are we have to rethink our strategy and because we're not really just not making progress and we would like to be making that's fine umm but that doesn't mean that descriptive face was wrong it was what it was it was a placeholder describing we can know until the end as well as a way of the guiding our ability to do you do research on something you don't have a label for you know what I mean happy to talk about in the literature you need place holder labels as a way to guide for the research is almost at that guiding is not a straight jacket today I think thats a little criticism is this complexity you talk about what you get is the normal natural Potter scientific investigation and Eva is also under the enemies of reason to come in China haha exclamation what's it say in Spanish right to have to go to Justin I really have an alternate exclamation there just mental illness doesn't exist just to put all politics is political dissidents a date state interpret the consensus of expert opinion as political opinion well of course cultural politics intrude on anything like this but that's not just gonna stare characterization of clinicians trying to help patients its not just this is what does the status of the day is listed a taste right in the DSM is the diagnosis of the psychiatry tonight hardcore like a really have anything reasonable to put up its place its just its all good there is no list all just a psychiatrist abusing patients you for clinical ideological reasons it's just

It really is almost as are you know when you get to the extreme and we get a crowd absolutely creations to

Placenta Madness (37:12)

• Inhabitat: Lotus Birth Recommends Keeping Baby's Umbilical Cord and Placenta Attached for Days

Rebecca you going to finish up the news 360 forest with the story about to send to yeah I normally when we at with your schedule talking to Santa Ana it's usually get it right that's the Big Sur to see the scientific thing about the senses is that a mother should keep the Santa and then eat it and it games super powers baby related to ours is off but this is a different trend related to at that but yet somehow more discussions in my opinion of Siri so what city were disgusted 1018 listen to add a, and your body how about a levy mean to send to attach to your baby as it right away until the right now and chill off into the umbilical cord attach is naturally at that stuff the trend its called it a new trend was in the near post but apparently it goes back to the 70's sadly 70's Show I guess people doing this for quite some time surely the science to back up this claim benefit others not and don't call me Shirley I okay so I haven't been able to find any of these claims that if you leave the baby attached to send to a the baby will be healthier like in terms of long-term health of the baby will be a healthier person growing up at the visitor to claim to make and there's really anything to back it up except for there are a number of studies to suggest babies can benefit by not cleaning peeing and cutting the umbilical cord in mediately after birth right now a common thing to do is within talking like really quickly within a minute yeah yeah in a minute you you can go to cut the umbilical cord your number so use it to suggest that the baby could benefit if you just let it go a little bit like 90 seconds longer a long enough for the present it to give like one last push of blood and antibodies and stem cells into the baby at do you eat like nothing to suggest is there still isn't back in the coming of your topping off your gas tank sure why not thats that the other is really really compelling for preemies umm the vid for full term infants it's actually still raging controversy weather in 3 minutes is better than 30 seconds left delayed cord clamping were talking 90 seconds to 180 seconds in a few minutes not 10 days or well if you leave it just leaving to go buy some pics of an hour or so to clot off by itself so that's for to clock in early to like fall off and then and that's what you say can take that as no more transfusion yes oh yes clapping yes I got it so after after an hour yeah there's really nothing to benefits for now basically you just a baby attach to this bra Dean Oregon that is flopping around on the good news is that you can purchase little of bags to put them in the keys cloth bags um is it a bad smell well no because the smell okay so if you leave the percentage is out in the air then if you have a bit of luck to said to will try out the issue if its very humid or you pack into some Tupperware or is it then you're going to track that boy sir and and and the present is going to start to rot and it

It is it is not going to smell good could you imagine that Tupperware party what has to the baby after lOL jk its all natural man it should be defensive this is just a sec completely evidence free scat somebody completely made this something I need to the same cells is the baby yeah so what's the difference between a real wrong to watch the baby breathes there is absolutely no function to the placenta whatsoever it is literally waist side the argument is completely irrational makes absolutely no sense just naturalistic granola not yet yeah it's a lot of it is is metaphorical like you're cutting the cord you're cutting the bond between mother and I don't know if you know these people like metaphorically still haven't cut the cord today but there's a certain time believing these children will grow into something is done uh uh uh what's your name Mary Selah oh so le gana la la I would say I was a celeb ok marriage like about this she said that I'm invading to the actual process uh she described as in dating an actual process when is helping mother baby is likely to cause harm in some way seen or unseen so if you think this is not your problem is you mean in history of humanity that except for 10 days video even our ancestors it you know in case they just kind of took a sharp rock and cut it off so you doing animals to be eating yeah yeah yeah yeah you on that no I didn't want to mention if anyone errands still considering that you probably shouldn't if your pets around in Oregon catch your baby around if you have a dog or cat in the house I could just have my dog like trick or treating in from the other room with have a placenta hanging out of his mouth biscotti from someone has a lot more experience because Steve deliver babies but I was with you at first base watching my wife deliver my son and I got I actually had like a 10 minute conversation with the doctor about the placenta and watch the whole process of a coming out to a good look at it in the doctor actually showed me like what it is hands-on like this is holding it right in front of me this is what this does Zach everything right that is the most

Disgusting proposition I could about Maginnis things fresh brand new Santa sitting there like 5 minutes after you want it so weird looking out the window get rid of the fall for you know that I often get get on a soapbox I like trying to make people accept the fact that our bodies our bodies and nothing to be scared of and there's certainly nothing to be disgusted by but I wasn't a way there a way for purses over everything is a friend this new story past my fella skeptics and number of whom are mothers and Lee Sanders has a very good point as she said I'm not sure I can even be convinced to having a ride in Oregon attach your newborn babies a good idea especially when it doubles as a strange relations hazard and the kids only hope is some sleep deprived people who have no idea what the hell are you doing in the first place why I hadn't heard me before that yes this is having a cord attach your baby is it a strange relationship has erred so yeah it's his search of purpose of soda lake it on his life Morton but in addition to Avenue this is yet another saying that now luckily hopefully a minority of people small group of people will be throwing in the face of new mother is to tell them that you're not good enough like a long with weather not there breastfeed even it out there having a glass of wine does this is one of those standards for new mothers Lovato you didn't leave your pushin to attach to the baby for a week and carried around with you to the party like on your air into the bathroom no like the shop she was a country club first week or two weeks after you bringing baby home it's really hard I couldn't wait a little to no about the umbilical cord to fall off that's why I said yes stuff yeah one of the other mother said she felt it was really weird and she couldn't stop poking until I know you're saying right up until like I would be scratching at that thing off yeah

Questions and Emails

Question #1: Water Heaters (47:17)

Follow Up

we got a couple questions to cover this week uh the first one exit is a follow up to follow up to you last week if you recall last week iight discuss the fact that temp water heater temperature are the fourth of l.a brother is in at home energy expended he pointed out that you should have your home water heater is set to 120 degrees Fahrenheit it's 49 degrees Celsius or lower in order to save energy and to prevent scolding risk especially if you have children for older people in the home number of listeners wrote in to bring up the the counter point that of Lord water temperature in the sand water heaters is a risk for Legionnaires disease

That allows Legionella to breed show hello I had to do a deep dive into this is your first always more complicated than you think right on never never touches just touch on assumptions are we so much complexity are so here's to pierce the bottom line it at that is true that we are absolutely across purposes with this is the temperature that is recommended in order to minimize burn rest is 120 degrees Fahrenheit for 40 degrees 49 degrees Celsius the temperature that is recommended in order to minimize the risk of Legionella growing and surviving in the water tank is 140 degrees Fahrenheit which is 60 degrees Celsius 140 degrees is a scolding temperature we take only about 60 seconds of exposure to water the hundred forty degrees Farenheit to cause a very bad burn to a child so 33 obsolete is that rest so which what's the greater risk for James to seize or or getting burned from the hot water should be more common it depends so there is a difference between electric water heaters and fossil fuel based water heaters puzzlefield want a better why because uh because of design because the water is more and more uniform temperature up some electric water heaters have a cold water at the bottom Creek older Clearwater the bottom and that's where you're going to create water the Legionnaire no we can play 31 review that I found they found quite a found 40 percent off electric water heaters were contaminated with the Genoa none but none of the fossil fuel based ones were um so you could make an argument that if you have a fossil fuel beast water heater you can go down to the hundred twenty Fahrenheit 49 Celsius temperature if you have an electric water heater then you should consider going up to the 140 or 6840 Fahrenheit 60s LCS temperature however there's one of the wrinkle to this and that is there are water heaters that have an antique scolding feature what that means is you can send it to 140 degrees and it is that was high enough to prevent Legionnaires but that water will get mixed with some cold water before it comes out of the faucet so

Does fit the hottest the water will come out of the faucet is $120 sitting in the water heaters at 140 for the colder water already gone through the process of being heated and cooled really cold water is too cold for the store so its really not that warm water that's the risk Google hot water kill the Legion yes yes it is the water gets 240 degrees at least once a day that's enough to prevent Legionella from 360 degrees when you really need to kill all that that's a recital what are the duties to respiratory infection and its like 12 percent raise hell is serious the other day article I found also said that for every 10 degrees you raise or lower the temperature that result a difference of 3 percent efficiency something different that's very high to the difference between a hundred and fifty degrees fahrenheit in 120 degrees is about 12 percent on your heating bill for the water heater so dot insignificant but that's usual probably better than either being scolded were getting Legionnaires anybody get Legion is a lie mostly old people places anybody can get it but the elderly the young and the me to compromise the rest elderly young right that's a pattern picture World Health Organization Arizona the side of the hot water 63 Celsius 147 height on the causes us to help organizations are more concerned about the spread of Legionnaires disease if you really want to get the golden tank keep it hot Wiz don't get into hot water getting out with a guy right

Question #2: Creationist Interview (52:37)

Hi, my name is Frank, I have been listening to the Podcast for the past year and love the show and would like to thank you for making my 4:30 am gym visits fun and interesting. I am a mechanical engineer, and work for a MEP consulting firm and specialize in healthcare, laboratory and high-rise and skyscraper design. At full disclosure, I am also a Christian. I just listened to Pod Case 408, the Don Mcleroy Interview, I very much enjoyed it, but it was painful to listen to. Don presented no hard facts or studies and kept presenting his interpretation of popular books. When I design a building, I start with the prevailing laws, building codes and standards and base all my design and calculations on a foundation of fluid dynamics, heat transfer and strength of materials. At the end of the day, I have to be able to defend my design, I could never simply depend on a popular engineering rule of thumb. I love the Podcast, but honestly, Don may not have been a great choice, he failed to argue his case from any solid studies. Is there anyone out there who can argue the side of intelligent design by presenting potentially hard facts and studies? I believe in evolution, but would love to here a solid discussion presenting both sides. Thank you Frank Denisi Boston

alright one more email this one comes from Frank lini see from Boston Frank to DC from Frank script hi my name is Frank I have to listen to the podcast for the past year love to show you like to thank you for making my 4:30 a.m. gym visits fun and interesting about 4:30 a.m. I am a mechanical engineering work for the work for a MBP consulting firm in specialize in healthcare laboratory high rise in skyscraper design at school disclosure I am also a Christian I just listen to podcast 408 the Don McIlroy interview I very much enjoyed it but it was painful to listen to Don presented no hard facts of studies and kept presenting his interpretation of popular book when I design a building I start with the prevailing was building codes and standards and basil my design calculations on a foundation of fluid dynamics he transfer and strength of materials at the end of the day I have to be able to depend my design I could never simply depend on a popular engineering green thumb I love the podcast honestly done may not have been a great choice you feel to argue his case from any salt studies is there anyone out there who can argue the side of intelligent design by presenting potentially hard facts and studies I believe in evolution but would love to hear a solid discussion presenting both sides thank you Frank

So short answer it out there aren't any there are there aren't any hard facts are studies or anything that really defend your designer creationism um really is as good as it gets seriously I need to having read all ur stuff and you didn't had tons of debating discussions with you know even the leading lights off Kevin told you to sign this is as good as it gets it is Frankton I listen not sure somebody like you like Michael Minasi like a baby mic you know cash is uh uh you re just a complexity and you know it put it put it in those terms but does his argument I've been completely destroyed by scientist they are they are vacuous it really are no better even though he might be a put them in so much better terms and honestly dont read all the intelligent design stuff NDP did it didn't honest and fair job of presenting that site that is really just as good as ik unfortunately discussion I had with me to introduce the enemies of reason why would you do and of 2000 question and answer session me by guest speaking of the Opera views expressed in the and one of the complaints as well movies recently because teachers really stupid people do I get a cation pictures of the best people on the other side is really stupid yeah don't make it seem that way to make your day going after the easy targets but just as a no to this restricted week after the interview with Don McLeroy I wrote a4 by 4 part blog post on neurological dissecting the interview and on target Mount Zion Vita dont reply he actually did send me a couple replies with an answer to in the later blog post he hasn't responded yet to my last to the end he said he would so I'm still waiting for I guess he's trying to articulate a response to my last 2 o'clock post so we'll see we'll see if he comes back with anything we'll see if maybe a nose maybe leaving changes mind baby maybe

Occ the Skeptical Caveman (56:21)

before the one who's that noisy stupid message we are in the midst of pre production for Oct the skeptical caveman hi and we are still looking for your help and support so there's a casting call going on right now for actors who just checked the SGU Facebook page for details if you want to audition for roles in the series we're also looking for a cruise so whatever skills or film experience you have let us know contact us just sent us an email that into at the skeptics guide .org with the subject ACH stand up I just know that you're interested we will get back in touch with you and of course if you wish to lend your financial support to the series we are always happy to accept it for the support increase the production value of the show

Who's That Noisy? (57:10)

Puzzle: A bank teller made a mistake today. The teller switched the dollars and cents when they cashed a check for Mrs. Jones, giving her dollars instead of cents and cents instead of dollars. After buying a newspaper for 5 cents, Mrs. Jones realized that she had remaining exactly twice as much as the original check. What was the amount of the original check?

So let's go on now to see heaven we had to put the last week everyone your call member I asked her what about cake the cake yet like a piece of cake the cake is a lie to kick it alive big lie and say they were eight people who share a cake but you person to cut the cake can only make three cuts so how can you cut a cake using only three cuts and wind up with 8 equal sized piece of heaven is a round cake or square cake question or a Pentagon the shape of the cake was not given so it was up there to imagine your own shape cake shaped like a bear it must not matter of course the point is there were lots of Craigslist since to the store but one of which classes you got the cake long way away first right and then you can make your top to bottom turning 90 degrees to cut top to bottom there you go 8 equal pieces of cake pieces of eight what kind of you there's a fly in this that quite a few people make it out that I thought of one if there's any kind of delicious filling in the cake that really blows understood right you're cutting straight through it what you don't cause you know you do things are exacting you probably get a cut above or below when you're not going to get in there got any the feeling topping on the cake did you ever get the bottom half of the cake really gets to you at the end of the s***** end of the stick on that you yes science facts out here for you I just washed and I'm concerned about this none of these are great assumptions that everybody is making about that KK mean I did take the bus stop to it you know frosting is that I just don't I don't agree with this whole thing I experiment more with this guy like a solution when you cut into four and then you stack them on top of each other and cut write down three to go another three steps necessary steps read some reason to be a message on the message board to help people came up with that I will not quantum equation calculation it was one winner for this week's drawing of Moria Star team from the message boards you are this week's winners graduations so what are you up to this week alright another puzzle this week but it felt last weeks was kind of the easy side of that about this week will challenge courtesy of a marker to find it online folks if you have any little books but you might have to sell a bank teller made a mistake today the teller switch the dollars and sense when they cashed check for misses Jones giving her dollars instead of sense and sense instead of dollars after buying a newspaper for $0.05 misses Jones realized that she had remaining exactly twice as much as the original check so based on that information can you figure out how much was the amount of the original check sounds like mass Martin Gardner mass for those of you who wish to give an answer by email please use WTN at the skeptics guide at work that is our official email address for all that crazy answers and also you can leave a response on a message boards with witches SGU forums dot com every week good luck everyone

Science or Fiction (1:00:55)

Item #1: New research finds that vitamin C can effectively kill even highly drug resistant tuberculosis bacteria. Item #2:A new analysis finds that the US has enough land and water resources to grow enough algae for biofuel to meet 100% of our fuel needs. Item #3:A recent study finds that bed sharing increases the risk of cot death, or sudden infant death syndrome, by fivefold.

alright 67 please fax to genuine and 16 wishes tounge my 10 1 is the fake everyone ready for this week I am ok got just 3 news items no see nothing unusual here we go I am Number one new research finds a vitamin C can effectively kill even highly drug-resistant tuberculosis bacteria Highlander to a new analysis find that the US has enough land and water resources to grow enough algae for biofuel to meet 100 percent of our fuel needs and I never three a recent study fine said b**** sharing increases the risk of cot death or sudden infant death syndrome by five folds alright Richard why don't you go for stress this week you research fun even highly drug resistant bacteria I'm at 1i don't keep up with medical u swirl it around the world but I've been under the impression for quite a long time to see well as some of the Bloods to be overstated sure about the one else is fine in the US landlord resource yeah the number to the a few sounds reasonable to me and number three I think I'm going to have to do about these five fold increase of a sudden death syndrome I think we would have noticed by now what about the city to pick the one about the picture okay Evan vitamin C can effectively kill even highly drug-resistant tuberculosis picture in your shot I'm having with this one is a highway drug-resistant tuberculosis the next one about umm the US has enough land and water resources to go to algae for biofuel hundred percent or if you want me to well I think that's conceivable would we need to like to convert you know I have to have how can we get everything ready we might go to produce enough energy but I do have the infrastructure stuff to deal with the energy that that was exactly produce store it all that use it but storing it in a meeting and everything else might be something else Harley but I think that was right the last one about Ed Sheeran increasing the risk of cot death by 54 I don't understand the correlation there it's that time I'm drawing a blank and I think this one is pretty low SES one I will throw my dart at the board and it hit the highly return Virtual Assistant ok Rebecca Ashley I don't I don't know I haven't heard any of these fancy Killeen for Q ASes like how how would that work I don't say I don't see it I don't understand how high and Stacy could directly responsible for killing bacteria that I don't know much about that carry or vitamin C so who knows grown enough biofuels to me a hundred percent for fuel needs that's all so tricky biofuel I've always heard it's just not been particularly efficient but that I think it's mostly about corn and other food crops team uses biofuel not necessarily algae so this is truth that's a sighting I know I try message hundred percent that's a lot of feel should say that I was under the impression that that Sharon was already considered a at a problem persisted for the message is still rather mysterious thing so

I think I'm going to go with financial just because meeting a hundred percent of virtual needs just seems so crazy that's a huge shop sell okay up the yard the cot death I don't know just seems odd to me um share your bed with it is it really does that I think too afraid to just roll over on the kid in the mail tonight baby the bed next to your use to be to be sleeping in bed with a tiny little baby vitamin C I'm not sure how drug resistant to go to kill stick to it can be for me for all I know they're not very high resistance and there for effective vitamin C can effectively kill it is insane too much I could be very reason I'm just not sure how was it is yeah like I agree with Rebecca about um 100 percent is wack that just like such a gargantuan amount now if they are restricting the clean to just land and water um and I didn't mention technology at all so giving you a certain technologies and I could see how me and you said you would be minimized but uh not sure this is Mitchell way to get around I miss you too man what I'm going to buy a few that want the edges out that in NJ the second one about the other biofuels think I did Kurt to me with Becca said hit me when you first read it out see the 100 percent of our fuel need to use a hundred percent of a few need a great now we need multiple forms of fuel 100 percent were talking about all the electricity all the all the guy trolling product that we burn again not all of our energy needs all of our fuel knee okay thank you for clarifying even still that's quite a bit ly I do see the logic in and thinking that that one is the state absolutely sleeping in bed with your child is a no no so yeah I got that one is I definitely science so I think number to the fuel needs a hundred percent you need to take okay so I guess we can take these in order let's start with number 1 do research find a vitamin C can quickly kill even highly drug-resistant tuberculosis bacteria Avenue talking tom was the fiction and this one is science this is a very surprised you're studying the wrong yeah I got this was an in vitro study this was in a petri dish 9.9 people not even animals doing is they were trying to figure out how to enhance the effectiveness of anti-tuberculosis drugs and Bobby Z 200 drugs for closes is becoming a significant problem um there are no notable strains of a TV that are multi-drug-resistant and nine percent are even extensively drug-resistant so it's becoming increasingly problems especially in in lower income countries okay to research looking for ways to enhance the effectiveness of existing on antibiotics so one thing that was the researchers noted was that that 16 which can be a really a reducing agent when added to a typical TV drug ice tonight is it that it enhanced the killing effect of the thing about the kilted killed of the bacteria and they hypothesized that the Sistine was producing free radicals in the free radicals damaging babe TB bacteria DNA in and kill him so they have a what see if we can replace it with another reducing agent and see if it has the same as sexually replace with vitamin C and it has the same effect sterilized culture then as a controlled a date did not include the antibiotic tonight if they did just straight up I didn't see and that sterilized to culture that killed off of the TV as well

So they still need to figure out why that is happening I think it might be because of the idiot somehow triggering the production of free radicals which is coming up. Of free radicals yes does its thing is just exited in the commercials for PT cream really do it is 6 was part of the reason why the simplistic notion that taking anti oxidant is good for your health is probably not true because of the reticle sexy part of our immune system is how r me to some kills of invading cells also important for cell communication triggers yourself to do things are also beneficial so just simplistically your external either taking extra antioxidants to say to reduce your amount of oxygen free radicals your body is not necessarily a good thing um and use this is kind of an example of it in that is it that a mechanism killing of these bacteria so we need to be seen to translate in any way to achieving that use when people but it was surprising result let's move on to number to a new analysis find that the US has enough land and water resources to growing up LG for biofuel to meet a hundred percent of our fuel need Jay Bob and Becky think this one is the fiction and this one is the section dr. hey ah sorry Richard and yeah I did it didn't know they did do anything else is faded Tyga it was just focused on land and water not on the technology to buy fuel energy efficient just iffy if you were trying to make biofuel come by growing algae where would be gross the algae do we have enough space in enough water to do it hey when did buy DVDs more recent calculations they figured that we could make enough to meet 112 of our ceiling needs to sell an order of magnitude away from all of our fuel need that but thats it thats a greater than previous estimate room but you're more like around the five percenter 120th so is it a little more than up to see if it's still only 112 are actual feel needs but this with you to ton of water did they estimate this is 40 percent of the amount of water that we couldn't be currently use for agriculture lot yeah so I don't think that this is going to pan out I don't think we're ever going to get up to 12 percent percent to the to the 112 mark I think even five percent this is a lotto ticket if we're like making gasoline from algae in the future it'll be one percenter less of our of our new gasoline eat Electric yo yo yo did you see if for example that our entire fleet cause Electric is being fueled by clean energy or in fission reactors whatever um will be still need jet fuel yeah we still need fuel for for certain kind of transportation were like electric vehicles won't cut it to maybe we can meet our new diesel injector fuel is kind of a needs through biofuels but not the current sleep that we have uh to the most cars game trailer gasoline cars 2012 on to number 3

A recent study finds out that sherry increases the risk of cot death a sudden infant death syndrome by five fold originally thought this one was the fiction but this one is science yes the number that was surprising that's why I told you that was at figure was surprising bulls or you said I was researching it was it to you so we knew that this was a risk but actually previous studies only really documented that it was arrested for parents who smoke I also rest for peer into our drink alcohol or use drugs but this is the first day that really shows that it's a risk even for parents who don't smoke drink or use drugs and Andy the magnitude was shoot is a pretty comprehensive study um they looked at individual records of 1472 cot death cases and 4679 control case across five major studies I hate that that was thinking to come up with a also the research is estimated that 81 percent of Kat Kat that someone babies under 3 months without other known risk factors to be going to start subpopulation that they could be prevented by just for all your parents stopped I'm sleeping with the beds in the in the house with the kids in the bed with them so 80129 all cadets been in contact incase less than 2 months old other estimates in one estimate was at in the UK vice could save the lives of 40 percent of all contacts that's a lot a lot a rainy city still mysterious you don't know exactly because it's this is not from parents rolling over in their kids and maybe that someone you know who knows but its not buying into the parents using drugs and alcohol search your name to me in that says like me to get something to do with that something is happening in a related could be carbon dioxide your own hello Jay there is evidence to suggest that the baby sleeping in the room with the parents may be beneficial and that may be because co2 levels from the parents are at HACC is a respiratory drive so imagine you're young infant respiratory system it's not totally mature yet again respiration is driven mainly by co2 much less so by oxygen so I think the higher co2 level theoretically could provide a stronger respiratory drive for the immature brain and been present just stopping breathing because it brings up so there's a theoretical reasons for medicine just sleeping in the room is beneficial to bed alright well congratulations jaybob and Rebecca jobs yea Richard thank you for playing along big win sports yeah ya haha this week so see its always a good sign it was reasonably challenging to

Announcements (1:15:42)

Richard I tell us about it and that's what makes a movie coming out in Australia about the anti-vaccine movement

Accessoryname getting having a story for quite a while now but nothing like I lost a lot of the newspapers to be tearing into the speeches in alcohol in here specifically Adkins destroying vaccination Louis being changed it's quite dramatic for more information about these very dramatic music Australia I can only recommend it how to download on Twitter she's at Dr Dre Cheap report on a recent episode 238 couple of weeks ago which goes into this up it seriously of those in Australia run to your TV's on Sunday night this sunday coming ists one is a documentary called jabbed by Sunday Pendleton and its a fantastically good well balanced and I know I hate to use it true documentary about vaccinations issues including some of the adverse reactions to vaccinations Frank an honest look at the whole issue and I can't really recommend I saw the film at the elements still and director and it was amazing and highly recommend it if you know anyone is on the fence about vaccines this is one of those documentaries that will push them over on her side and rich were going to be seeing you in Vegas in about six weeks I can't wait to make a recently and I'll see you guys soon as one of the things I love about this

so whatever you're doing a new workshop at Tim 2013 you haven't before tell us about it yeah yeah I'm going to be a hosting a panel actually and the title the workshop is taking on Willow in martial arts so we're going to examine the crossroads where the martial arts industry sport and you know what people train for fun meet the lines of skepticism and science and understandable are some real real heavy hitters were all very experienced in the martial arts including Jennifer we let John Rennie MMA fighter Brent Weedman and Dave Jones from the higheat podcast will be joining me so Davy Jones yeah I guess so it's going to be going to be a great a panel um 10 is not to just for this to be a new for a lot of people so I hope you can join us for that and we'll be doing our site space medicine a workshop as well as well as a side dish medicine panel and the rest you'll be doing a live show and will have the SU dinner and Jade you're going to be doing again the a tu poker tournament yeah yeah Josh burgers hosting I think we have a hundred year and last year was awesome I came in third time but I'm just a very quickly so if you came in third was awesome yeah it's going to be great I'm so glad you can sign up on the I 10 2013 registration page back

Skeptical Quote of the Week (1:19:05)

this week I am I have a client have a very impressive quote yeah I made it to the home page of Reddit see me when I guess the author the code is across a good Martin Dale develop Steve about dr. Stephen about Steve yeah cause I thought you said something you said something like this but then this was a cold from where that I don't know it's part of my Stein size basement Alexis I probably said it multiple venues but I don't remember exactly where that was okay well I'd be a hella listener actually post a coat that Steve probably wrote down at some point up on Reddit got to the front page it guys name is Andrew Krueger like to thank you Andrew made a graphic and it to its a good picture of Steve from the microphone

What do you think science is? There's nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. Which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?

Dr. Steve Novella

you're right that does a response to people who say like a we don't need signs to know what works what doesn't work in medicine your signs doesn't have all the answers are the basic 80 signed statement since ive what I mean your sinuses just those things with the releasing so we don't need to be fair and thorough and logical well yeah you do when you break it down like that it's kind of hard to disagree with the individual components.

Thanks and you for posting it up and read it was kind of fun to make it all the way up to the front page yeah I'll be posting that on the SU Facebook page in case you want to look at it right well thank you all for joining me again the same to you Steve Dave and Richard thank you for joining us always a pleasure to have you on the show Thank You Stacey Q going to is the place to be and until next week to see your scripts guide to the universe

S: The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe is produced by SGU Productions, dedicated to promoting science and critical thinking. For more information on this and other episodes, please visit our website at theskepticsguide.org, where you will find the show notes as well as links to our blogs, videos, online forum, and other content. You can send us feedback or questions to info@theskepticsguide.org. Also, please consider supporting the SGU by visiting the store page on our website, where you will find merchandise, premium content, and subscription information. Our listeners are what make SGU possible.

References