SGU Episode 367

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SGU Episode 367
28th July 2012
(brief caption for the episode icon)
SGU 366                      SGU 368
Skeptical Rogues
S: Steven Novella
B: Bob Novella
R: Rebecca Watson
J: Jay Novella
E: Evan Bernstein
Quote of the Week
Homeopaths do not have a physical brain, but merely 'skull water' with the memory of brains.
Robin Ince
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Forum Discussion

Introduction

You're listening to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe, your escape to reality.

Hello and welcome to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. Today is Wednesday, July 25th 2012, and this is your host, Steven Novella. Joining me this week are Bob Novella...

B: Hey, everybody.

S: Rebecca Watson...

R: Hello, everyone.

S: Jay Novella...

J: Hey, guys.

S: And Evan Bernstein.

E: Hi-ho, everyone!

J: Hello!

S: Hi-ho.

B: Hi-ho?

E: That's what Kermit the Frog used to say, remember?

S: And the dwarves, right?

E: Well, they used to sing that more than say it, but you're right. Frogs and dwarves.

S: (laughs) Frogs and dwarves.

B: Living together. Total chaos.

E: Sounds like a d20 game. All right.

(laughter)

This Day in Skepticism (0:44)

• July 28, 1996: The remains of Kennewick Man was discovered

S: All right, Rebecca, what's important about today?

J: Yeah.

R: I would love to tell you what's important about today what you doing today is that this is the anniversar—July 28th—the anniversary the discovery of Kennewick Man. July 28, 1996, the remains of Kennewick Man were found in Washington State and people probably best know Kennewick Man due to the controversy surrounding the ownership of the bones, because the local Native American tribe, the Umatilla, requested custody of the remains and they wanted to bury them according to their tribal traditions. And scientists sued the US in order to have the ability to perform tests on the bones first and they won because the judge found that the Umatilla did not have a cultural tradition that connected in any way with the bones, which were suspected to be quite old. And sure enough, when tests were performed, they were found to be probably about nine thousand years old. And because of Kennewick Man, researchers figured out a good deal about... it's a complex issue, because we don't know much about the spread of early American people. We know a lot, but there's a lot of puzzle pieces to put together. Kennewick Man added a new puzzle piece that was quite interesting for a lot of researchers to figure out. And there's been a lot of debate about what... where Kennewick Man came from and who Kennewick Man's possible descendents were and all of that good stuff. So that's the shortest I can sum all that up for you.

S: But there's some other details I think are worth mentioning. So yeah, it's over 8,000 years old; could be as much as 9,000. What was immediately interesting about that was that the skull does not have a typical Native American features; it looks Caucasian, although it also has some other features that don't quite fit into anything. So this implies that—something very different about the usual story that that has been unfolding about the population of the Americas. As you said, this is a new puzzle piece, which really calls into question a lot of what we thought we knew about who came over when. And it's partly for that reason that no modern Native American tribe—the burden of proof is upon them to establish that this is an ancestor. They can't establish a connection because it's not even Native American, in terms of its morphology. The DNA apparently has been eqivocal. So, another interesting wrinkle to the ownership controversy: in 2005, John McCain introduced an amendment to NAGPRA, which is the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, the law that basically says that Native Americans can say, "hey those bones are our ancestors; you have to give them to us so that we can handle them according to our traditions". The amendment would have said—change the definition of Native American from, "is indigenous to the United States" to, "is or was indigenous to the United States". But that bill was never passed. If that change had gone through, then Kennewick Man would be considered Native American because he was found in the United States; that's all it would take.

R: But then that would raise a whole new batch of issues because at that point, you still have to figure out which tribe gets to bury Kennewick Man. And there's a very good chance that you won't be able to find the tribe, and if you do, there's a very good chance that white people have already wiped them out.

S: Yeah, that was kind of the point of that amendment, was that so many of the descendants have been wiped out that it's not really fair to require them to establish a continuous connection, so they wanted to loosen the criteria. But I think it's unfortunate, because from a scientific point of view, we want to study the remains of humans that we find in North America to piece this puzzle together and if we don't get the opportunity to do that, we're going to lose a lot of information. Honestly, my opinion is that... especially when you're going back thousands of years, these bones belong to humanity. The are part of our shared history, you know what I mean? The history of our species and... so I think that we have the right to have scientists study this to figure out... to piece that history together. Unfortunately, there's a lot of religio—Native American religion and culture tied up with this; they have certain oral traditions, and if they believe that what the scientists are investigating are going against their oral traditions, then they don't like that. That becomes the basis of their opposition.

R: Right, and that was the argument on behalf of the Umatilla was that their oral history goes back long enough to encompass these remains and the government denying that is the government rejecting their religious beliefs. Right now, those remains are held at the Burke Museum at UDub and they're not on display, because it would be insulting to the...

E: Potentially, yeah.

R: The Native Americans.

S: It's an interesting controversy and one we've sort of been following over the years, and it's kind of in limbo now, actually... still owned by the federal government, specifically the Army Corps of Engineers and being held by this museum as a neutral party but not being studied; not being displayed. So it really is still unresolved.

R: And I forgot to mention when I mentioned the discovery of the remains is that what makes these remains particularly interesting is how complete they were. At first blush, it seemed like they were only maybe a 100, 200 years old. It wasn't until they did radiocarbon dating that they were able to fix the date at around 9300 years. So like, there were only... there's like one, maybe two, major bones that were missing and there was even like a full set of teeth inside the skull, so there's a tremendous amount that they could learn from these remains.

E: We don't have much that's still around from 9200 years ago—

R: Especially in America.

News Items

Skeptical Conferences (7:14)

• TAM
• DragonCon
• CSICon

S: Well, let's move on to our news items. We are back from The Amaz!ng Meeting 2012.

B: 20-12.

S: 20-12. 2012.

R: He'll never stop. He'll never stop.

S: No; I will. In 2013.

E: (laughs)

R: Zing.

S: Of course, we were all there except for Rebecca. Rebecca did not go to TAM this year because of issues that she had with DJ Grothe.

R: It revolves around a discussion had online about harassment policies, really. And many women, particularly, and a lot of men, encouraging skeptic conferences to enact anti-harassment policies to help women feel more comfortable at conferences.

S: We definitely missed having you there. Of course, the rest of us were there to attend the dinner and do all the things we agreed to do. And it still was a great event; TAM is very successful, I thought. Hopefully we can move past this kerfuffle... if you want to learn more about this, it's been written about to death online and we're still going to be discussing this issue; I didn't want to show itself to get dragged down into talk endlessly about this, but there is definitely a lot. The discussion is very active online still and we hope to move this forward in a constructive way. So that's all I'm going to say about it further. We also have two conventions coming up: we have Dragon*Con—

R: That's Labor Day weekend in Atlanta, Georgia, for those of you who don't know.

S: Yep, August 31st to Sept 3rd; the entire SGU will be there. We will be doing a live show on Saturday night. And I'm told we have to Crystal Ballroom this year, which is a little bit bigger than the rooms we had last year, which always flows out the door, so hopefully we will have enough room for everybody. And we will have tables there to meet our listeners and sell some swag and I think we're also going to be recording a private show like we did last year 'cause that was so popular; people really liked that.

E: It was awesome.

R: That was a lot of fun.

S: It was a lot of fun.

J: George and Brian Brushwood were with us.

E: We'll see who attends this year. Hmm.

S: Hmm. We'll see. Mystery guest. And the SGU will be attending in its entirety for the first time CSICon in Nashville from October 25th to October 28th.

R: Steve and I were there last year and it was awesome.

B: Wait! I didn't know it was so close to Halloween. I'm not going.

S: (laughs)

E: Why? There's going to be a Halloween party.

S: There will be a Halloween party.

B: Are you sure?

R: Yes, I'm hosting it.

E: Yes! They're already talking about the costumes. See?

B: Maybe I'll go now.

E: Bob, the invite's in your email.

S: Rebecca hosted it last year; it was a lot of fun. So we will be doing a live show from CSICon on Thursday, October 25th at 7 to 9 p.m.; we're basically opening the conference. George Hrab will be there. In the schedule, it just says, "entertainment with George Hrab after our show"; I don't know what entertainment he's planning. And then we're also doing a Skeptics' Guide dinner on Saturday night, where we will... you can have dinner with the entire cast of the SGU and other well-known skeptics. And we'll be doing some entertainment during the dinner as well; we're still working out the details, but definitely something fun will be going on.

R: And you can get tickets to all that at csiconference.org.

S: So there is a proliferation of skeptical conferences. In a good way, you know; I think we're spreading out around the country and around the calendar reasonably well, so there's a lot more choices.

R: Yeah. And speaking of... unfortunately, this isn't a full SGU event, but I just want to throw it out there because it's happening soon. August 3rd through 5th I'm going to be in Montreal for the Sex & Secularism conference, and you can learn more about that at humanistconference.ca.

J: For the show that we're doing at Dragon*Con, let's tell people how they can sign up to have that private show with us.

R: Yeah, you can go to skepticalrobot.com and you'll see an item listed front and center that says "SGU private recording". Click on that and you can place your order. It's $50 a ticket and there's a limit of thirty people.

S: And it'll be Sunday night at 10 o'clock. Yeah, we've done that two times so far; both times it was a lot of fun, both for us and all the people that came. And so I think we're going to make this a regular thing.

R: Yeah.

Sally Ride (11:26)

• CNN: Thank you, Sally Ride

S: All right; let's move on to some other news items. Unfortunately, we do have a sad news item this week: Sally Ride passed away a few days ago.

R: I was crushed. I love her.

B: Yeah. Stinks.

S: So Sally Ride was the first woman American in space. She rode aboard the space shuttle Challenger in 1983. That made her a household name, at least in the US. She actually was a strong advocate of science education; she used her fame to promote science. She had a website—there is a website: sallyridescience.com. They produce educational materials like key concepts in science, earth sciences, life sciences, physical sciences. It's really good. It's good outreach; it's like trying to supplement the very poor public school science education that we get in this country, in my opinion.

R: They also run science camps, including girl-only science camps for girls in fourth grade and up.

S: Yeah; so she was awesome.

E: I was 13 years old when that happened; it was huge, huge news and I remember thinking to myself then, "well, why is she the first? Why we only having women in space this point?" It seemed like it was such a long time coming; that we were kind of late to the game, in a sense. Even the Russians sent a woman up into space 20 years prior.

S: Yeah, 1963. Cosmonaut Valentina Tereshkova.

B: Really?

S: Yeah.

B: Whoa.

S: Orbited the Earth 48 times in 1963. Yeah, (laughs) we were late to that party. I remember all the headlines were, "Ride, Sally, Ride", you know, when she went up into space.

R: Yeah, I was a bit lucky growing up, because she's such a household name by the time I was cognizant of anything that... it never really occurred to me as a kid that, like, "well, of course women can go to space and of course women can be cool scientists". I really looked up to her, you know, but it didn't occur to me at the time that she was—

B: Especially when she was in space.

R: —so singular and that she crossed so many boundaries; that she sort of blazed that frontier for women.

S: Yeah. She was a physicist and she joined the faculty at the University of California San Diego.

R: A theoretical astrophysicist, even.

S: Yeah!

B: Holy crap.

R: That's hard core. That's hard core.

B: My main memory is her curly hair in zero-g.

S: Yeah. (laughs)

J: Absolutely!

S: That was iconic. Absolutely.

J: When I was was researching her, I was looking up pictures everything I saw the pictures from her on the shuttle with her hair just, like, floating around and everything and that was burned into my head.

R: And you know, the interesting thing that came out after her death was that not only was she the first woman—American woman in space, but she is also the first known gay person in space. She's very tight-lipped about her private life tonight; I don't think the people he knew that she was dying of pancreatic cancer and even fewer people knew that she had a long-time lesbian partner. 27 years they were together and her partner is also her business partner at Sally Ride Science and she just didn't see the point in making a big deal out of it but there a lot of people now who are looking up to her as a gay icon too. The first lesbian in space that we know of.

S: That we know of?

E: Well, there was the Russian. (laughs)

R: We didn't know she was a lesbian until now, so.. who knows?

E: Yeah. Never knew.

J: I like the fact that I didn't know about it; I just heard it right now and I really just don't care. You know what I mean? Like, it has no impact on what I think of her at all, like—

R: Well, for me, it makes me even prouder of her because... I mean, she overcame so much.

S: Yeah; meanwhile at the same time, the Boy Scouts of America is embroiled in a bit of a controversy over discriminating against homosexuals.

E: Oh, yeah.

S: This is really going against them. We're definitely living through a culture change; you know? A generational culture change, where the younger generation basically doesn't care about sexual orientation, and you know, just over time it's... these attitudes are shifting. The Boy Scouts now are getting caught in the middle of it. One thing that interested me about that is they discriminate against atheists and apparently that's OK. But now they're getting slack for discriminating against homosexuals, so...

R: I should mention the Girl Scouts in multiple countries—I'm not sure if it's happened in the US yet, but the Girl Scouts in their pledge, they mention God and in several countries now they've publicly dropped that in order to be more egalitarian, more appealing to a diversity of girls. And the Girl Scouts are awesome when it comes to science education and encouraging girls to explore the natural world, so.

S: And they make good cookies.

R: They make delicious cookies; what's not to love about the Girl Scouts? Don't write in and tell me what's not to love about the Girl Scouts. I don't wanna know.

E: You know how many pounds I've gained over the years eating those cookies? Oh, gosh... so deadly.

R: That's a fair complaint.

J: I have a nitpick with the Girl Scouts, OK? We've been noticing—

E: They rejected you, Jay?

J: Stop. I got over that years ago. We've noticed that your cookie sizes have been shrinking slowly and steadily throughout the years.

E: Oh! Fair point, Jay.

R: Jay's on to you, Girl Scouts.

J: Seriously; make them bigger! What are you doing? Like, why? I'll pay more; just make 'em bigger.

E: Jay, have you read the label on those cookies?

R: I'll pay more bigger.

S: (laughs) We want bigger cookies.

J: Did you guys hear about the Boy Scout who had his—who was an Eagle Scout actually—he turned in—he turned in his papers or what is it? Is it a badge that they give you?

S: His badge, yeah.

J: The guy wrote the board and said, "I can't in good conscience maintain my relationship with the Boy Scouts" and he quit.

R: Good for him.

S: Not the only one; I think it's starting a trend. They're getting a lot of badges back in protest over their stance on homosexuality.

E: Those guys don't need no stinkin' badges.

Mood Photography (17:36)

• Neurologica Blog: Mood Photography

S: All right; Well, Jay, tell us about The latest in aura photography.

J: Have you guys ever hear of an aura or a person's aura?

S: Oh, yeah.

R: I have.

E: Indeed.

J: And what color are yours; what do you think?

B: Well, mine's red.

R: Pretty sure I'm purple.

E: Orange here.

S: I've always imagined my aura as like a pale ecru.

R: Oh, Steve.

S: (laughs)

R: Steve, Steve, Steve.

J: Actually, your auras are all black; you don't have any and I explain to you—

S: No, they're invisible. They're transparent.

J: Well, as many of you know, there are people that believe that people give off auras that some people claim that they can actually see. And the fact is that humans radiate electromagnetic energy, but this is mostly infrared, and it's a function of our body generating or giving off heat. If we have an aura, it's just heat. Our bodies don't radiate energy in the form of radiation or light from our feelings or thoughts, so you think about whatever you want and feel whatever you want; there's just no way that anyone is going to be able to, or can with today's technology, see or read or peer into what's actually going on in your mind and in your heart, if you were going to use that

S: In short, there's no such thing as an aura.

J: Right. So yeah, we use—

S: Made-up nonsense.

J: —something called science to determine that an aura doesn't exist. So if you we simply just take a quick look at the electromagnetic spectrum...

B: I'm looking.

J: Where are the auras—where are the auras on that spectrum, you might ask. And of course, some answers you might get are, "well, it's metaphysical... an aura is being picked up by somebody else and it doesn't really criss-cross with the physical world, and some people say it does or whatever; it's just the typical huge spectrum of answers that you get what you ask these types of questions. Now Steve, you mentioned in your blog today about people who are either self-deluded or have visual or sensory disorders, and that's an explanation for why they might see an aura.

S: Well, I mean, I think the standard explanation is that the people believe that they're seeing auras are just self-deluded. Just suggestability. But over the years there's been one or another various speculations about "well, maybe they have synesthesia", which we discussed actually a paper that pretty convincingly argued that that doesn't fit well with the phenomenon. Or maybe there's something else; there's some other visual disturbance they have, which is... 'cause it's not that big a deal to have this visual illusion of a halo of light. There are drugs that can do that; if you take digitalis, for example; too high a dose can make you see auras around any bright light source. But that's all very speculative and I don't think it's a major contributor to the phenomenon of people beliving in auras; I think it's mainly just New-Age belief and suggestability.

J: People who believe in auras mostly were influenced by the findings of a man named Semyon Kirlian. He was a Russian inventor who in '39 accidentally discovered that if an object is on a photographic plate, if it's connected to voltage, an image is produced of that voltage stimulating a gas that emitted from objects, especially if there's moisture involved. I know you guys are dying to know the why are we talking about this today.

R: Dying.

J: There's a new form of aura photography out there and that's called the Guy Coggins Aura Camera 6000. Bob, can you guess who invented this thing?

B: Is it Guy Coggins?

J: Yeah. The Guy Coggins Aura Camera 6000!

(laughter)

J: He actually calls it the Aura Camera 6000!

E: Rather cartoonish, wouldn't you say?

J: Did the Simpsons like write this guy and his camera? The aura photos that he takes with his camera have a 10-second exposure and while the picture's being taken the subject places his hands on these two boxes that capture "biofeedback". This device picks up electromagnetic fields that are measured at the Ayurvedic Meridians, or otherwise known as complete bullshit points.

(laughter)

J: These are—I was reading about that and it's really funny when you read the gobbledygook that comes with explanations for things like this; it's like, "the rivers of energy that flow through your being," you know, it's that type of crap you'll read when you read about the Ayurvedic Meridians. So the camera translates this data that came from the person placing their hands on these boxes into one or more colors. It's explained on the website: "Through a patented operation, these parameters are projected as a radiant, colorful aura field around the body onto the Polaroid film along with the image of the person." So these different traits are assigned to each color; some of you know about this, right? You have orange is creative and artistic; green is for strength—

E: That's me.

J: —and healing and teaching and red is force of will; blue-violet is "mystical and unifying". It's more than enough—

E: There you go, Rebecca.

J: It's more than enough to make anybody happy when you read your own aura because everything is good. They don't say, "wow, this particular color means you're an A-hole."

S: You're a jerk.

R: You're gonna die.

S: What color is skeptical, Jay?

J: Oh, that's a good question.

S: What color aura do you have if you don't believe in auras?

J: I think if I were to assign a color to skepticism it would be silver.

S: OK. So, the key here is that this is not taking a picture of anything. This is just placing an artificial color on to the photographic film based on some BS interpretation of... whatever; the skin conductivity; the bio feedback parameters. It's not actually a picture of anything. Right? It's just fake.

E: It's nothing.

J: His imaging is complete BS. Yeah. He even states—at some point I was reading that he said he knows that it's not really take me a picture of an aura. Even says it.

S: Yeah, it's almost like simulating what an aura would look like and it's just guessing at what color it's supposed to be based upon some made-up algorithm. The other thing is, it's reading something very transient; the skin conductivity, temperature, whatever; all that stuff. This is not like it's a fixed property; it's gonna change with your body temperature and other physiological parameters. This is this is about as scientific as a mood ring.

B: Send me a picture of yourself and I'll Photoshop an aura around you and it'll be the same thing.

Computer Modeling Life (24:06)

• Phys.org: Researchers produce first complete computer model of an organism

S: So Bob how was the first computer models

B: pretty cool we are one step closer to treat Seaford researchers in the J Craig Venter in student for the first time really tired music 20 computers to my life cycle Mycoplasma genitalium. can anyone guess why they used a specific type of bacteria

radio uh because

B: because it has the smallest genome with any independent 2525 really really tiny. e.coli for example which is probably a comp it has 4288 genes guys really really. tiny Nissan to know your day with the word 2 2009 to synthesize remember that. you use it because it was really tiny and go to be easy to do. this is a parasitic bacterium that is usually unwanted to shows up in human respiratory and your genital tract as a transmitter a sexually transmitted to see so a really I want guys on you but done but why would we even want to respect your me to software does she like to read a primarily it's all about bringing a mountain of data under one roof. 18 years now when the biggest problem has not been getting enough to actually using a high-throughput studies that we have now you can create libraries really really fast problem now is trying to understand the passage reductionist approach me with Gene and knock it out and see what she says 13 minutes nothing to get a big picture of what's going on. Stanford engineering team lead Marcus Cooper Ted many of the issues were interested in aren't single gene problems into the complex result of hundreds or thousands of genes interacting. with us off the team use your own instrument and data from more than 900 scientific papers about this organism. in detail things like I'm too old by logical molecular directions known to take place inside the cell from birth to death. to keep advance that I would say what's the status and then make all the stator work together in to do this by 28 different modules or categories of molecules and interactions within the cell. who things like DNA and rRNA Andy and molecules I can have a light at Dr Jenner it within the cells during the tablet and it is much wasn't communicated with each other during each time step program when was run. to turn the super discrete elements into a single unified did you were going to a key factor I think it's really critical and really fascinating validated this computer model. it was able to reproduce independent map data that examined many different cell functions many different scales. If you could create a model in matches with reality you're definitely at least you're on your this pretty accurate.

E: so if you're traveling this to a person that to you know that's what a tremendous amount

B: oh my god oh yeah I know that's not get silly. So my usual question is will want me to future hold for this kind of technology? I think I see a fleet fleet design to cure a yeast mass producing sick from brainer possibility for the lapse in 2008 I much faster than you can imagine doing right now. on this could give the ability to you suck at a computer aided design in medicine and bioengineering never really be done before

Artificial Jellyfish (28:30)

• BBC News: Artificial jellyfish created from heart cells

S: Rebecca a different kind of artificial organism inside created

R: yeah I'm going to type you bump okay no not really haha yeah that's it take to get

R: this is interesting Kevin kit Parker is a professor of bioengineering and physics at Harvard. he was interested in growing a heart. how does one grow heart? and use inspired by the way that jellyfish pump a muscle in order to move through water so you decided to try to create an artificial jellyfish you seen heartfelt really hurt cells from a rat. so long with researchers at those Harvard and CalTech uh He spent years studying how jelly fish move before they're able to create jellyfish like silicone body under which the printed this pattern of proteins that mimic the musculature of jellyfish. next eclipse of the heart muscle is the heart muscle cells over the body and then they dropped it into a container of electrically conducting fluid and then shocked it, which forced to cells to contract and lose this synthetic jellyfish around water. show the basic Lee Dave bioengineered a jellyfish. I need to plan it when I found out that it was being held this year and you know it as it is playing the can actually reproduce and can't move on its own though apparently the sales contract slightly before the electricity was applied, which is cool. I don't think she is amazing to me is that this team isn't sending out a perfectly recreate a jellyfish. Instead the identified the primary function of a jellyfish and they thought about a new way to create it. no there jellyfish doesn't look exactly like a jellyfish it is designed to move to the water though in the way a jellyfish does um but better basically. 'Cause evolution is this message process and it doesn't always result in the perfect tool for the job. I applied to the idea of creating replacement parts for people maybe we don't necessarily need to recreate the human heart this weekend instead building new more streamlined organ that's better suited for the job and it seems to be dis teams goal lead author jenna doll Ross said that to shoot engineers currently try to copy to show organ based on what they think is important or with AC is the major components without necessarily understanding of this components are relevant the desired function without analyzing first how different materials can be used. So as for the jellyfish there now working on a simple green for it so that I can respond to it by tonight or seeking out food or energy. however I could find no plans currently play status capabilities.

S: pedantic point here before we get emailed about it that the term jellyfish is out of favor because of jelly fish yeah it's not official but dumb a lot of clear easytether have been using the term jelly or sea jelly rather than jellyfish butter jelly fish is still I think an acceptable terms are finish obviously yeah right right

B: Jenny's starfish in agriculture starfish anymore see stars in India does

J: saying anything the fish in the water in general accurate rifle mammals that live in the water too whatever let me know they

R: were going to change the names of catfish is not really cats fish no its not even if you need a maid band man my country trip

E: transgender what spongebob

B: oh sorry I'm not 12 The Show yes he did you do that

B: mermaid man died

S: the character are the actors in the movie 3900 yeah how soon to be a dragon to use for a switch

Firewalk Mishap (33:20)

• Neurologica Blog: Firewalk Mishap

S: Alright Evan, finish up the news items for us with Find interesting firewalking mishap that happen a reason

E: firewalking this is Grace still doing this Tony Robbins you know self help guru on TVs big screen to other folks in headlights last week in San Jose I need inspiration talked into trees and shout the victory fire water attended by thousands I can DNA streaks off from phone scorched by the superhero with this is not know that for sure the. 21 people were treated for burn injuries after going through the a fire walk exercise by which Tony and others claim that its use mind over matter you too can walk over fiery hot coals burn up at temperatures of to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit how is that possible what channel trick is what is what it is and STD did a good job you were leaving the difference between the. Of fate would vs metal on the difference between thermal conductance uh vs thermal capacity big big difference

S: yeah I used tires as an example of a very high thermal conductance and capacity to transfer a lot of energy to learn to see if you touched a piece of iron a 2000 degrees it would a cookie very quickly as opposed to would guess very low thermal conductor for transfers energy very slowly she could touch it for

E: 1500 restuarant hider so but not much is a huge gets transferred to your feet walking walking to go to leak brisk pace and also a short distance Richard Wiseman 2 years ago TAM9 xillvideo about people were doing the fire walk with the fire walk with too long as I know the usual 10 to 15 to 25 to 30 for sure we get to about the halfway point in 15-20 feet that's it you have to keep at it wasn't just that the fire what

R: happened to be too long is that Richard purposely made it too long where is the fireworks

S: yeah its purest physics esse amount if he can hold how quickly can transfer it on and that's it and there was some discussion DVD ash translation I guess that is probably a minor player ameature STDs

J: I'm shocked at that guys cheat didn't buy the power of their own will help those people walking to close your eyes grow um yeah people bringing a lot and that's a fact basically people have dairy PPV sweatier moist and I believe that that will let you create a barrier I very very very minor player and I wouldn't trust it just a fact. you wanted to see a hot scale on the on the burner in your kitchen and your water on a little bit of water it's kind of scary around and it cut it last a long long time you think it should where can I bury underneath a water droplet back taxes insulation to transfer of heat to Tia to wear the droplet it away and I might be a reminder player in this really was the thermal capacity in any conduct do that

S: that if your feet are sweaty that the members me to stick to your feet is a contact in this really pretty and has nothing to do with thinking about 30

E: firewalking Institute research and education organization to firt fire

B: how long does it take to get to

E: three weeks get this its a world-class Institute at international certifies firewalk instructors to the highest standard of safety to their press release because they had something something say about this they said and I quote sanity I think until the 21 out of 6000 who took part equates 2286 likelihood of receiving a second or third degree burn at this event what happened. they say the lifetime risk of death from riding in a car is 1 in 84 a custom that is seldom given second thought uh hello apple orange uh how to walk across guns to get to school for grocery store hahaha

J: yo city was reading this article that there's gotta be somebody take a tire to do these events like you just put on fire walk event if you don't know what you're doing in the next person that knows what they're doing has to know what the physics are right? after a bit idea of like how long should be at what stage during the fire you how happy birthday to the embers have to be in order for someone to walk on it right? 30 different definitely physics behind it just makes me think a lot of people that accept these things up actually do know these are the parameters at have to be met in order for people not to burn them so

S: sure to get to stick to get people think that would ever the psychological easy answers that beer paneling is say something you know

R: yeah but then you know the exit Dead TV show that you mentioned earlier that Richard Wiseman to sit in demonstrates clearly that there are plenty of people running these things who are true believers because he took people run firewalks and he extended leave them they were positive they could still do it nothing just needed to meditate a bit more and they make across and that's what makes a video funny is it a try it you know they start walking across a very calm and serene and then mid-way they just suddenly run and jump into this clearly thought that this is going to work on it wouldn't have done it on camera so I suspect there's a lot of people who turn it in terms of OK this is a standard playing this is how long do you wait before sending people cross you know and it didn't really think that the user hard and fast rules for a reason I think they just think that's just how it's done.

Who's That Noisy? (40:30)

S: All right well Evan, you're also going to get us up to date on Who's That Noisy we're a couple of weeks behind I think.

E: 30 a couple weeks behind yeah couple weeks behind uh so absurd 364 field answer to that and we need to announce to accrue guessed correctly for a rose out of practice on that one good job everyone for recognizing that fool Victor Sam and uh John about the name of tree in OC was the first correct tren o si Racha lations to that is. and then the last time when we left you last had a a local to play last week and let you know who if anyone so here we go

E: you guys remember that yeah yeah yeah yeah what is several guesses. well talk to people who do I track from the message boards uh show sucked yesterday baby sloth. right track there mobloc guess a baby crocodile tractor but neither of those kisses were correct this was a baby human. 12 to be here it's amazing what you think when you type in a weird noises babies make you get on first comes up as a human being take you but

S: just making a weird noise

E: very healthy one just making a weird noise kind of green yeah a little bit of an Girling cracked yeah its sick so they were the closest but not quite right so uh I'll take a picture on a

S: already what are you up to this week

E: alright after rereading supposing of the month OK guys of this one too short it's a little bit little bit difficult to hear I think the audience is going to play this back a couple times but I also predict that you will be at least one correct person guessing this week att.net call you get that's all you need

S: to find out find out next week

E: that's right now it's got da torque in SU forrent.com does a way to get ahold of give us your guess good luck to everybody.

Questions and Emails

Multivitamins (43:26)

Show me to do one email this week this one comes from Chris who writes:

You guys have done a great job convincing me that vitamin mega dosing is a waste. But what about a multivitamin? Clearly it would be best if I ate a healthy diet. I should also work out every day, give to charity, volunteer, and learn to play a musical instrument. Life is hard. The REAL question is what's better: a shitty diet & NO vitamins or a shitty diet with a multivitamin? Love the show. Thanks!

S: what do you guys think about that interesting version of this question we do get this the last goodbye to me all the time idea to visit you know he's just between the information to the public in the actual sciencs to say this but

E: I remember when you talk about vitamin is that uses supplement for certain deficiencies for people who have certain conditions in which there they cannot or do not get certain vitamins and therefore yes they do need a compliment but that's only to be sore did you know done with you if I see a doctor is part of you know regiment um II think just taking a multivitamin for the sake taking multivitamin probably doesn't do much for a week is normal diary to get all the new series

S: what if you don't have a healthy diet a crappy diet

B: I think it would have to be prepare a crappy a reverse more than your average height a warrant to warrant a multivitamin more than you would think

S: yes I guess it depends is the short answer on what you're saying Bob. just having a dent on healthy diet near a guiter you too much red meat and vegetables whatever d everything shows you cannot make up for that. you can't have a crappy diet and take a multivitamin anyway come to your crappy diet you're not. benefits a lot of benefits of having to nutritious diet come from having a meeting like gifts for free to vegetables and then not eating the stuff that you should be eating like you too much fatter too much red meat or whatever that point of view the answer is no. vitamins do not compensate for a bad diet. Probably because part of what makes a diet healthy is that you getting to much of certain stuff you're not getting enough nutrients. However if your diet is a bad or is just restrictive in a certain way that you actually will become deficient in vitamin supplement doing to prevent that deficiency will help treat at deficiency. But that should be targeted to whatever your decision is. the most common ones I see are actually vegetarians. If you give you don't know how to have a proper vegetarian diet it's very common for people become B12 deficient you and I do you know if you know what you're doing but if you decide not really reading about doing what you're doing to me from your diet in a couple years down the road they're b12 deficient ODST need and b12 supplements basically. told Ricky Dillard actually a case is like that of course is like a specific conditions where vitamin is helpful apps folate for pregnant women for example is a common even if you're not to fish in taking a leak does heat reduce the incidence of neural tube defects but you have to be taken before you know your pregnant. if I tell me no happened. So short answer is a bad diet but if it's not restrictive bed with your decision then yes obviously will fix the deficiency. a good diet there's no benefits to taking a multivitamin.

Science or Fiction (47:31)

(jingle)

Voiceover: It's time for Science or Fiction

S: Each week I come up with three science news items or facts, two real and one fake. And I challenge my panel of skeptics to tell me which one they think is the fake. You guys ready for this week?

J: Yeah.

B: Yeah.

E: Uh huh.

J: Oh Yeah.

S: Oh yeah. Okay, here we go. Item number one: A new study show that while multitasking a visual task with an audio task—such as driving while talking on the phone—significantly impairs performance, combining two visual tasks had little effect. Item number two: Scientists have identified a new syndrome—delayed severe allergic reaction to red meat caused by a tick bite. And item number three: Researchers have found a distinct subsystem for smell in the mouse that is likely dedicated to smelling behaviorally important odors, such as fear. Bob, go first.

B: Uh, oh boy, wow. You know you read news items— I don't know where you pull these from. Ummm.

S: And you never will (laughs), if I can help it! Imagine how hard my job would be if you knew where I'm going for my stupid news items.

B: Ha, ha. Alright a new study shows that while multitasking a visual test with an audio task impairs performance like we've heard before, but combing two visuals had little effect. Uh man, you know, I'm just not, I'm just not buying that. Cause all the studies I've read, not recently, but we've talked about it enough, they really didn't distinguish that. And I would think that, I would think that if you had two visual tasks, I mean, the idea of going back and forth, you know, would kind of the same as, you know, multitasking at work. You're going from one task to another, to the other and it's just never as good as just sticking to the one for a while. Umm, hmm. Let's see. Got a new syndrome here, delayed severe allergic reaction to red meat caused by a tick bite. Damn. I have no idea what to say about that. I can't think of anything that would get any red flags. Oh geez, I don't know. Let's see what the third one is. Distinct subsystem for smell in the mouse dedicated to things like fear. Umm, bsch-yeah, I guess, that's possible. When a creature is experiencing fear there could be some sort of release of something that would be identifiable and associated with fear— I guess. Two visual tasks. Alright, I'm gonna say the multitasking one. Umm, I'm— I still think that even if it's two visual tasks that multitasking there will be some impairment going on, because that. So yeah, I'll say that ones fiction.

S: Okay, and Rebecca?

R: Okay, the multitasking item reminds me of something I read ages ago that showed that talking on a cell phone while driving impairs your ability to drive safely much, much than carrying on a conversation with someone who is in the car with you. Which at the time, I think, was attributed to the fact that you don't have to guess at the other person's emotions and things when they're in the car with you. But you are using your sight. Uhh, so, more so, than you would on the cell phone. So, because of that, that item rings true to me. That, uhh, audio is more demanding for us than visuals. Sooo, tentatively I'm saying that one makes sense. "Allergic reaction to red meat caused by a tick bite", I haven't, I only recently learned that you can have allergic reactions to meat. I didn't realize that was a thing. But I know that is a thing now so I'm more likely to believe that than I might have previously. Caused by a tick bite? Yeah, I mean, I guess see, maybe, you know you have a certain immune response to a tick bite that also cause an allergy that you didn't have before. So that one makes sense too. The one, the one that's not making sense is the idea that mice have a dedicated area for, a dedicated subsystem for smelling fear because, mostly because behaviorally important odors such as fear, that's what bugs me because I don't understand how smelling fear in another animal is important to mouse at all. Like mice are just scared of everything, all the time. Right? Like why would they care if the cat that's after them is afraid of something. Suddenly they are gonna turn around and charge the cat? No, that's not gonna happen. I've never seen that happen. All I've ever seen is mice running for their dear little lives. So, I can't see any reason for the mouse to have the ability to detect fear in other animals. So, that one, I'm gonna say is the fiction.

S: Okay, Evan?

E: Well, let's have a look. Umm, the multitasking one, we've spoken quite a few times on the show about multitasking. Umm, but specifically, visual task with an audio task? I'm not sure we've phrased it in a specific context such as this. So, umm, it's very interesting. Significantly impairs performance, combining two visual effects had little effect. Two visual tasks had little effect. Well, driving is a visual task, what else would I be doing while I'm driving? Visual task, well— texting is a visual task. Kinda thinking that, I mean, well that's other tasks as well but certainly visuals a main component of that. Uhh, hhm, I'm not sure about that one. Umm, the second one the new syndrome. Severe— delayed severe allergic reaction to red meat. And the tick bites the carrier? So apparently what's happening here is that the tick bite carries something in it's saliva? Little tick's saliva? That gets into your system, through the blood and causes you to have an allergic reaction to red meat? Is the anything— I can't—I'm trying to think of what else to kinda equate this to. But I can't think of an example off the top of my head. (sucks breath) So, moving one to the last one. Mi— I mean— uhh. Mice that have a distinct subsystem for smell? That smells behavioral[ly] important odors as fear. I'm thinking that that one's— of the three— I kinda think that that one probably is the most likely to be true. You know, they find all kinds of cool things about mice. Mice are the classic test animal. But a distinct subsystem. Uhh, I'm not sure, that one seems to make a lot of sense to me in a certain way. Umm, Rebecca, you were talking about how mice are kinda fearful and skittish of everything and I think that actually plays into, uhh, why they may have a subsystem for it that they detect it. So, it's between, for me, multitasking or the tick bite and allergy. (sucks breath) Uhh, well, I don't like the two visual tasks having little effect. I don't know about that, I think you really gotta keep your eyes on the road, that's the bottom line. So, I'll say that that one's the fiction.

J: That a boy!

S: (drowsily) I'm sorry, which one?

E: The multitasking is the fiction.

S: I'm, I was doing something else.

(laughter)

S: Alright, Jay?

E: Ha, ha, ha.

J: I'm gonna go in reverse order. I absolutely think the one about the mice smelling fear— being wired to smell fear. Sure, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm curious to know—

R: Seriously?

J: Yeah, just.

R: Just me?

J: Well, you know, I don't want to throw out the big pheromone thing. I mean it's like people throw that word around like, you know, it explains all these different things or whatever. But absolutely, you know, sure they could smell— you know, you were talking about the cat as a predator and all that and, sure, why wouldn't they be able to smell it. Smell things that the animal is putting off, whatever. Yeah, that makes sense. The one about the red meat caused by tick bites, the allergy situation. The only thing about that one I don't like is the word "delayed". Like a "delayed sever allergic reaction". Why would it be delayed? It's very strange. I hate ticks and I hate being bitten by ticks and I hate everything to do with them. And I think we should try to destroy all ticks and bedbugs. But anyway, I don't know about this one, I mean, what have I got to say other than it's weird and I hope that that one's the fiction. But the one that I didn't like from the moment that I heard it— that's why I went in reverse order— is this whole hoo-hah about combing visual tasks has little effect, that's BS. Combining visual tasks, meaning two different things you have to visually keep track of at the same time, that one is the fiction by far. Is the fiction. Thank-you.

S: Okay.

J: Thank-you.

S: Alright. So—

R: I'm alone in here? I can't believe I'm the only—like, uh!

S: (dryly) You're alone.

J: A-looone!

R: Immediately the mouse one.

S: You're alone. Jay, what about bed ticks? What do you feel about them?

J: Oh my God. Imagine if there were pen ticks! (laughs) Oh my God. No!

R: Dear Lord, no. Something new to be scared of.

E:

S: Alright. You all agree that scientists have identified a new syndrome, a delayed sever allergic reaction to red meat caused by a tick bite. You all think that one is science. And that one is (pauses)— science.

J: Uh, why is it delayed?

R: Yay!

J: Why delayed?

S: I don't know. But it's the first one. It's the first delayed anaphylactic, or severe allergic, reaction that has been identified.

E: Wow.

S: Uh, this is a study, really a case series, where they identified two patients that the same syndrome. They were all bitten by the lone star tick and had a—

R: How ironic, given the Lone Star Steakhouse.

S: Yeah. So the—

E: Ha, ha, ha. Sorry. I like that.

S: The tick has a specific carbohydrate that produces an immune response. The same carbohydrate is in the red meat, meat derived from mammals, so can produce a secondary or an anaphylactic severe allergic reaction. There are a couple of firsts here. This is the first identified anaphylactic reaction to a non-protein, to a carbohydrate. It's the first delayed reaction, 6-8 hours delayed after eating the meat. So, like you have a steak dinner and then in the middle of the night you wake up and can't breathe.

J: Yikes.

S: Yeah.

J: Ticks really suck.

S: Triggered by a tick bite! Yeah, that's cool. It's very interesting.

J: I mean, seriously—

S: Imagine how hard it is to make that diagnosis. But they're saying that if there are physicians in this part of the world, bits of the south-west, and patients present with an anaphylactic reaction after consuming red meat you should consider this newly identified syndrome. Very interesting. There are a lot of new things in there. Umm, let's go back to number 1: A new study shows that while multitasking a visual task with an audio task, such as driving while talking on the phone, significantly impairs performance, combining two visual tasks had little effect. Bob, Jay and Evan, you all think this one is the fiction.

S: And Rebecca—

E: (resignedly) Uhh.

S: (continues) You think this one is science.

R: No whammy, no whammy, no whammy.

E: This is it.

S: This one is—

E: I mean, this is it, right?

J: Oh—

S: (continues) The fiction!

E, B, J: (collective joyous moaning)

S: It was fiction! I suppose you could have thought that maybe, like, if you were integrating two visual into one, sort of, meta-visual task that wouldn't be multitasking but— no, no. Uhh, but no. It did in fact— the study showed that combining two visual tasks is even worse. Has more of a negative effect

S: (continues) That was the way to go with this one.

J: Thank you.

R: Ewwwh.

B: C'mon, it was obvious.

E: Wow. (cat noise)

S: They used eye tracking technology to see how the subjects were handling the tasks that they were given but also their performance on the task. And, yeah, when trying to combine two visual tasks their performance greatly suffered. The other interesting wrinkle here though is that when asked how they did, the people who were trying to multitask two visual tasks thought that they did better than when trying to multitask a visual and an audio task, even though they did worse. So they had a false sense of security, if you will, with the two visual tasks. So they were trying to model what would be worse, talking on the cell phone while driving or texting while driving. And definitely, texting while driving is much worse.

J: That's odd.

S: Kind of seems intuitive to me. I mean, you are visually distracted while trying to text.

R: Yeah, but, and you're using your fingers.

S: Yeah, although I don't—

S: I don't think that's the component though, the problem.

R: Really?

S: It's just the distraction. The diminishing of attention. You have to look away from the road to text. You brought up the previous data that shows that it's more distracting to talk on the phone than to someone who's sitting next to you in the car. We've brought this up before, you know, there's speculation about why that might be. There's the extra set of eyes, (do they) compensate for the distraction somewhat? My personal experience is that I find it really hard to talk on a cell phone, in that is takes a certain amount of concentration because the cell phone companies typically give just enough bandwidth so that human speech is recognizable. But not a lot more than that. So they are always restraining the bandwidth and I just find the audio quality, even as phones get better, the audio quality is really such that I really have to pay attention to understand what the person is saying over the cell phone.

R: Yeah.

S: Do you guys find that too?

J: No!

R: Yeah, I guess. I don't drive.

J: Ahhhh!

E: Yeah, that's right.

J: No, I don't agree with you.

S: And now we've got to use the the hands-free devices and some crappy ear phone, you're not even holding the phone up to your head. It's even harder.

J: What do you mean, it's harder?

E: It's harder. The voice, the sound quality is worse with the hands-free ear buds.

J: My head phones are epic. I have Bose headphones. They are awesome.

There's anything else I could do to your body be spayed to colony of the microphone Theater into service for 12 numbers to read researchers have found a distinct smell in the mountains like the dedicated to relieve ear that one is of course science what is the nearest service series of experiments in last few years back does any interest in shows that might have a older sensitive euronews dad are distinct from the general factory Indian the Queen Mary live um that the new PDP actually go to different to bring a different track desi pathway was found to be activated previously by previous research when animals smell things like you're in a lion or tiger urine chemicals found in a urine actual trigger this pathway to the last visit the researchers need to do the closing is why I said likely it is to show that it's actually plug in to say via middle of the part of the brain that is responsible for emotions that's what the suspect that would certainly be a close the loop on the hypothesis purpose this is silly but all the pieces of that we have in place so far TV 20 in that direction please pierce my ear in the predator you're feeling at least you're in your fellow mite spray the next year was afraid then you should be afraid as well they see something you don't see yeah Chemicals Inc on repairs or other emotionally important to make sense in that what would you do the more we learn about the different parts of the CD on century systems they are divided up into different streams of information based upon significance for example they were different visual Street visual streams for sings dead or alive just a live in nanny agency nurses not acting agency which is why in my opinion we can relate to cartoon characters we know that they're not alive but they're acting as if they are like that means we are brain processes that is if they're living agents even though they don't have the other characteristics of being a jerk three dimensional that does not appear to be necessary for your brain to interpret something is having agency you guys see that talk about this about DMT research you created on innovation which basic triangle in a circle square moving around yeah did they ask the subject what's going on in the story here and people have a pretty easy time making up your laboratory to triangles to Daddy and the day child in the mothers protective sheet but because they're moving away today even barely suggest some kind of agency we just probably be happily process that way in a few agency on to the triangle perfect sense to BWW stream of a factory information just for those smells that should trigger an immediate instinctive behavior especially survival be a different part of the brain so good work guys lie email to mail this time I'm email to cover your track record when you're by yourself yeah I was nervous I was here about you J what we're doing I never let's learn how to not care JJ's to carefully told me that over the years by the guy who rarely screens get the right answer

Item number 1: A new study shows that while multitasking a visual task with an audio task, such as driving while talking on the phone, significantly impairs performance, combining two visual tasks had little effect. Item number 2: Scientists have identified a new syndrome - delayed severe allergic reaction to red meat caused by a tick bite. Item number 3: Researchers have found a distinct subsytem for smell in the mouse that is likely dedicated to smelling behaviorally important odors, such as fear.

Skeptical Quote of the Week (1:07:11)

S: Speaking of screaming, Jay do you have a quote?

J: Yes. Steve I have a quote that was sent in by two different people moments after each other like it was amazing I had to go to person to person Richard Lane thank you for sending in the following quote:

Homeopaths do not have a physical brain, but merely 'skull water' with the memory of brains.

J: by a comedian called Robin Ince.

Announcements (1:07:39)

S: schedule thank you for joining me this week on Saturday July 28 which is my daughter's birthday cities 13 years old

E: Julius the nature of teenager yeah create a lien mode

S: happy birthday to my daughter to be at airport and b***

E: but sunday somebody else is having a birthday then we all know and love couldn't be doing any of this without

R: is also a teenager start

E: at heart Bob J any idea who that might be numb kids

R: are all their birthdays Lake Ray in a row

S: Barbie worth 929 today I'm my daughters NJ is August 11th

E: got to sleep in a little bit Steve happy birthday

S: No thank you for joining me this week everyone. Thank you until next week, this is your Skeptics' Guide to the Universe.

References