SGU Episode 8

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SGU Episode 8
2nd August 2005
(brief caption for the episode icon)
SGU 7                      SGU 9
Skeptical Rogues
S: Steven Novella
B: Bob Novella
E: Evan Bernstein
P: Perry DeAngelis
Guest
SS: Steven Salerno
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Introduction

S: Hello and welcome, once again, to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. I'm your host, Steven Novella, President of the New England Skeptical Society. With me, as always, are Bob Novella...

B: Good evening, everyone.

S: Evan Bernstein...

E: Hi, everyone.

S: and Perry DeAngelis.

P: Hey! How is everyone tonight?

News Items

Haunted Dolls on eBay (0:25)

S: So, Bob, you sent me an interesting item that you found on eBay, last week. Tell us about that.

B: Yeah. This was–this was a great one. Actually, it was interesting and it also got me a little upset. What it was was an auction, an eBay auction, for a haunted doll.

S: A haunted doll.

B: And–so this guy had this big blurb on the auction saying things that–I'd been a paranormal investigator for 20 years. In the last four years I have–now these are quotes,

I have mainly studied inanimate objects, mostly dolls.

Alright, so this guy plays with dolls a lot. That tells you one thing.

S: That's his specialty, huh? Haunted dolls.

(laughter)

B: If a house could be haunted...

P: Dolls are good because they have faces and they're like little people and they're very emotional.

S: And you could sell them on eBay.

P: (laughter) Yeah, that's why dolls are good.

B: Right, well, he says,

If a house could be haunted, why not a doll?

Okay. So, he goes on,

There's only three documented haunted dolls out there in paranormal community.

Now, I thought there was only two but he's telling me there's three.

P: (laughter)

B:

Vincent the haunted clown doll, Anabel the haunted Raggedy Anne doll, and Robert the haunted doll from Key West Florida.

Okay.

E: Where do they get these names from?

B: I dun–I guess in the paranormal community that's kinda a well known thing if you're into dolls.

E: Is that like naming a hurricane?

B So–his doll is named Megan.

E: Okay.

B: And it looked like–looked like an average, you know, well made doll to me. And–so he's saying, that, oh, Megan was very interesting and felt–he felt something odd about her. I don't know what it was, but–I don't know what it was but a presence was definitely there. Well, that's what he tried to write. He he actually wrote a presents, as in E-N-T-S was defiantly there, so I can only assume he meant presence was definitely there. So he doesn't have spell check apparently. Let's see,

What first got my attention was that you would sit her up and then she would always end up on her side.

What? That sounds pretty wacky to me. Dolls falling over. So, he decided to tape it. He video taped it one night. He left the tape running, and he–he reassures everyone that nobody–no one was in the room during the time of the recording. He makes a point of stressing that. And he shows a video and it was an MPEG. And at first blush, just looking at the MPEG quickly, you're like, "Okay. The doll–the doll moved it's head." It kinda tilted it's head up and turned it slightly to it's left. But I looked at the video a few times and I got real close to it. Now, to my untrained eye, there was definitely something a little unusual about the movement of the doll. It seemed like there was a little distortion, possibly even some sort of a–I don't know–like a, stop motion effect where it moved he'd stop the camera or something.

S: Didn't seem kosher, huh?

B: It just didn't seem kosher to me. And, of course, he had the timer–ya know the time counting up as it–as it was filming but, of–of course, that's an easy thing to fake assuming that this whole thing is fake.

S: Bob, you don't believe this guy?

P: What are you talking about?

B: Well, I–I didn't believe it–I didn't believe in him until...

P: He's got one of the three.

B: until the clincher. Of course at the end he hits us with,

I have studied Megan with EMF, Electro Magnetic Frequency meters, and have gotten strong hits from her.

Well of course that convinced me. I mean, if it's–if an–if an EMF meter is going crazy, well, what other evidence do you need?

S: Yeah, it has to be haunted.

B: So after all this he got, last time I checked, he got over 40 bids and it went for over $610.

S: A $10 doll, basically.

B: Right. This is a $10 doll, and he got–now, before the–now the auction's over.

S: What a racket.

B: Now, Perry, you–you saw the auction end. It went for $610 or something?

P: Yes, it did. $610. It was the final bid. Yeah.

B: Now, since–since the auction ended I've tried to find it in the archive and it's not listed anymore. Now I–I really wanted to write a letter and send it to eBay and say, "Hey. I mean this fraud."

P: Well, Bob, that's not a problem. There are–there are currently 114 haunted dolls for sale on eBay. If you do a search...

B: Oh really?

P: on 'haunted doll'. You'll come up with 114 of them.

S: But Perry, there's only three legitimate ones in the world.

P: Uh, these would be the illegitimate ones.

(laughter)

E: Right. These have names. I guess the other ones don't? I still don't get that.

P: And–Ya know, many of them with very dram–a lot of dramatic photos. A lot of ghost orbs here. Lot of, lot of blurry images. Lot of–lot of lens flash. Lot of camera cords.

B: I thought eBay was good with fraud but I guess this kind of fringe thing is–is kinda hard–ya know–hard to enforce. I mean it's–it's easy to determine that, yes, this Monet painting is indeed a fake, but how do you conclusively prove that...

S: Right.

B: that–you know–it's like proving a negative. You can't prove that this doll did not move at this point in time in the past.

P: Well–well, Bob, that's the whole point of the "evidence." I mean they have photos of the dolls, like, sitting. And–and have blurry, ya know, flashes and–and blobs on them.

B: Hey Evan–Evan, if I–if I got my hands on that MPEG I wonder if you–if you guys would be able to scrutinize it at work.

E: Yeah. Send it over. We'll see what we can make of it.

B: Just to see–to see if there was something...

S: Yeah. Now, I mean, with most of these dolls it's let the buyer beware, right? If you want to buy something because somebody else says it's, ya know, haunted, that's your problem. But if somebody doctored up a video at least you can make the case...

B: Right.

S: that that was a conscious, deliberate, deception. If he was using that to sort of establish a value for–for the object that it doesn't have.

B: Eh, eBay's not in the business of debunking the claims of–of what the people are trying to sell.

P: I mean they try and not have outright just fraud.

B: Of course.

P: Here–here's a doll that actually was able to issue some EVP.

S: Electronic Voice Phenomenon, huh?

P: Yeah.

S: It was a talking doll. Gee, I've never seen that before.

(laughter)

B: I've been getting the strangest EVP's from this light in–in the house. When I bring the meter close to that light it goes off the chart. That light must be haunted.

S: EVP is Electronic Voice Phenomenon.

B: Oh.

S: Not–not an EM meter. EM meter is...

P: Right. This is...

S: would be a different phenomenon.

(laughter)

P: They–guy says that

I captured three voices on the recorder very briefly. We believe one says, "Now." Then we believe one says, "Want to play some music?" There is also some rustling noise and, I think, a door slamming. Then you hear some more rustling and a voice saying simply, "Hello."

That–that's what he got on his EVP...

S: There ya go.

P: From this doll. From this picture of this haunted doll. And there's–you should see, I mean, the–in this particular doll, which is simply–the auction is entitled "Haunted Doll EVP" there's a–just a huge burst light near the doll. I mean, in fact, it looks like it's right on the lens. It's quite–it's incredible. I mean it's very impressive.

B: Light on the lens?

S: So we actually had the privileged of seeing a haunted doll before. Do you guys remember this? We were in the most haunted location in the world.

P: It was one of the three that he mentioned, Steven.

S: Ed Warren's basement. Right.

B: That must have been the Raggedy Anne doll.

S: It was, luckily, for our protection it was locked behind a glass case.

B: Thank goodness.

P: It was.

S: And we were–we were warned not to taunt. The last person did that died in a motorcycle accident leaving the museum. So we were very careful to taunt it as much we possibly could.

P: Right.

B: Well yeah. He–I mean, I remember Ed saying that don't touch anything in the basement, because just touching anything–ya know–you could–I–I don't know–get possessed or whatever.

P: Well–well he–he, but, Bob if you did do it by accident he had the cleansing ritual.

B: Right. But–of course I didn't do it by accident. I touched everything I possibly could when he wasn't looking.

E: Oh, yes.

B: And–and I'm still alive with ten years–no–five years maybe.

E: Eh, it's been about five six years, I think.

B: So–I mean, every day is just a–a bonus for me, ya know. God.

P: (laughter) That's true. That's true. You're living on borrowed time, Bob.

B: (laughter)

S: Well, later in the show, in a few minutes, we're gonna have Steve Solerno on, the author of a book called SHAM, about the self help and actualization movement, but before that we're going to do this weeks Science or Fiction.

Science or Fiction (8:30)

VO: It's time to play Science OR Fiction.

S: So, here are the three items for this week.

P: How does this work, Steve?

S: Well, I'll tell you.

(laughter)

S: Every week I scour, scour the news and the internet for interesting items. Either science news items or science trivia facts. Two–I present two facts which are real and one I've made up. The–the challenge for my panel of skeptics, Bob, Evan, and Perry, is to sniff out which one is fake, and–from the two that are real. Are you guys ready?

P: Indeed.

B: Yes, sir.

E: Born ready.

S: Okay, let's play. So, listen to all three before you make your guess. Number one, scientists in Hawaii have discovered a new species of carnivorous caterpillar. Item number two, paleo-anthropologists have discovered the first evidence of Neanderthal Man in North America, or item number three, scientists have published the results of a key experiment demonstrated desktop cold fusion. Which two of those are real, recent news items–science news items, and which one is the fake science new item?

P: Cold fusion's fake.

B: Repeat that last one, Steve.

P: (laughter)

S: So, Perry, you're con–you're going to confidently vote for number three, that the desktop cold fusion is the fake.

P: Is it–well it's absolutely fake.

E: Well this–I mean, it sounds almost too easy, to choose...

P: I would have heard about it.

E: to choose the third–to choose the third one.

P: Bottom line is I would have heard about it. I didn't hear about it. It's fake. Carnivorous caterpillars? Sure. Neanderthals in North America? Sure. Look at some of our politicians.

(laughter)

P: But, uh, cold fusion on a desktop? No. No way.

S: Okay. Evan you concur?

E: I have to concur. But, I won't be surprised if I'm wrong. But I'll concur.

S: We're never surprised if you're wrong, Perry.

E: Thank you. I was right last week.

S: Alright, Bob, are we–are we gonna make it unanimous? Or you wanna try one or two?

B: Tell me them again cause I've got to vet your every word because sometimes the–the distinction can be so subtle, so tell me again.

S: This one–this one's not subtle. The–this is either true or false, this one. So it's not going to be like one inch versus three inch kind of subtlety. Number 1 is scientists in Hawaii have discovered a new species of carnivorous caterpillar. Two is paleo-anthropologists have discovered the first evidence of Neanderthal Man in North American, and three, scientists have published the results of a key experiment demonstrating desktop cold fusion.

B: Desktop. Now–they did do–they did do a recent study–maybe not too recent, maybe–was it six months ago–demons–ya know, they–they reassessed the cold fusion hubbub. Ya know, the–the experiments and it was still–ya know, they couldn't say 100%, absolute nonsense, there was still some anomalous stuff that some people got. It wasn't–I was–I was actually surprised that it wasn't a clear cut–twenty years later this is still bologna, and really just put the final nail in the coffin and it didn't come to that. But that was like six months ago. That's not recent, and I haven't seen anything. Neanderthal? God, I didn't think they–they got as far as North American. I mean did the–that land bridge exist back then when they were...

E: (unintelligible)

S: they–they–you're talking about the land bridge that connects, essentially, Siberia with Alaska...

B: Right.

S: across the Bering Straight? Eh, comes and goes over the years, with the ice ages and whatnot.

B: Yeah, it's the–but wait the Neanderthal's did exist during an ice age, I think, so that's when it would have existed but, hmmm. I didn't see that–man, and cold fusion. Ah, you stink, Steve.

E: (laughter)

S: Everyone buys the carnivorous caterpillar, huh? You guys are just okay with that one.

(laughter)

B: Yeah, that's–yeah, so what? A caterpillar that eats a little meat, ya know?

E: Yeah. It's a giant caterpillar, 24' long, but...

(laughter)

B: You didn't say that.

E: otherwise totally normal.

S: Now that–you mean–It's attacking Tokyo right now.

E: (laughter)

S: Alright. Put you're nickel down, Bob.

B: The cold fusion is too obvious. It–there might be some subtle thing going on there that–it's not like we're going to have Mr. Fusion in the–the back of our cars any time soon. I'm going to go with Neanderthal.

S: Okay. So lets–lets dispense with the meat eating caterpillar first. That is true.

E: Woohoo!

S: A newly named species of Hawaiian caterpillar eats snails, which is probably the only thing slower...

(laughter)

S: than a caterpillar, would be a snail. So, yeah, that–that–that's true. The–the name is, Hyposmocoma molluscivora. The last one means it eats mollusks.

B: Gazuntite.

S: molluscivora. So...

B: Mollusks.

S: so that one is true. That was presented to the University of Hawaii at Manoa. So, now which is it? Is it Neanderthal Man or cold fusion which is false? So let's talk about Neanderthal Man. Neanderthal Man was discovered over a hundred years ago, in Europe. There are many, many fossil finds of Neanderthal Man in Europe and the Middle East as far as Asia and in North Africa. In fact Neanderthal Man probably originated in Africa. But there is as yet no evidence that Neanderthal Man has ever ventured into North or South American and to the new world. That one I made up. That one is fake.

B: Okay.

S: So Bob wins this week. That is correct. It would be the first evidence, if anyone did discover–I mean it's not–it's not implausible. You know, Neanderthal Man migrated quite far. They had fire. They certainly were able to survive and ice age. There's not reason why they couldn't have crossed the Bering Straight into North America.

B: We just haven't found the evidence, yet.

S: We don't know–maybe they didn't. Maybe there was never a population living there when the Bering Straight was–was frozen over, but to date there is no evidence that Neanderthal Man has made it into North America. Bob was confident that he would have heard that had that, in fact, occurred. So...

P: Alright, Steve. If there's no evidence of Neanderthal Man in North America how do you explain our politicians?

(laughter)

S: There's also no evidence that Neanderthal Man ever cross bred with-with modern man. So you can't-you can't rescue your–your hypothesis that way, either, Perry.

B: Yeah, did they–they actually got their hands on–what's it–some mitochondrial DNA or...

S: DNA from bone marrow from–from fossilized Neanderthal bones.

B: And it was pretty conclusive, right?

S: Yeah.

B: That–that there was no co-mingling.

S: Right. No co-mingling.

P: Alright. So you're going to tell me that cold fusion is real.

S: Well, listen, I–what did I say? I said that–I'll exactly read what I wrote.

B: Right. Right.

S: Which is, "Scientists have published the results of a key experiment demonstrating desktop cold fusion." That–that's actually the title that I took from the news report. And I looked it up to make sure the it's legitimate. But, this is–this is what happened. Researchers at Purdue University have published some new evidence supporting earlier findings–this is a replication of a study–of a device that can produce nuclear fusion reactions. It does not actually produce energy, yet. This is not a device that–that can produce a net bene–a net output of energy. As opposed to the–the Pons and Fleischmann experiment, what they were basing it on the fact that they were finding an excess of energy in their apparatus.

B: Right.

S: This one is not defined by a production of excess of energy but by other markers which are more reliable like the–the hallmarks of nuclear fusion, which are–let read that

B: Neutrons?

S: New–yeah, the production of neutrons and, I think, gamma radiation, as well. What–what they–what they do is they use sound waves to create...

B: Oh, sonoluminescence?

S: Yeah, sonol–exactly sonoluminescence. They basically, create these bubbles and the sound waves cause the bubbles to collapse very powerfully and very rapidly which produces a very, very intense pressure and heat in a very, very microscopic–very tiny space which is able to produce the forces required to cause some cold fusion to occur. It's certainly not yet a device that could–again, we can't plug into this any time soon to produce energy.

P: So it's cold fusion that doesn't actually do anything.

E?: (laughter)

S: Well, it's–it's–it's sorta a proof of concept, ya know, sort of getting it to occur. They said,

Researchers had estimated that temperatures inside the imploding bubbles reached ten million degrees Celsius and pressure comparable to one million earth atmospheres at sea level.

So I'm not sure if you can call ten million degrees cold but they're still calling it cold fusion probably because of–that's the buzzword and, I think the researchers are just nuclear fusion in their more technical papers. I don't think they're really calling it cold fusion but I guess the apparatus is cold. You don't have to produce an environment of these temperatures, but it's still–inside...

B: It's not like you have a...

S: these con–which is again different than the Pons and Fleischmann, sort of, cold fusion claims. Inside these microscopic bubble you are creating a very small area of intense heat and pressure.

P: What was the–what was the basic flaw with Pons and Fleischmann? Why were they so wrong?

S: They probably were...

B: Experiment design, wasn't it?

S: Yeah, they just were–their methods weren't...

B: Rigorous.

S: weren't rigorous enough and they were–they–they were–had not eliminated all non-fusion sources of the excess energy that they were requiring. I'm not really sure of the–of exactly what their methodological flaws was–flaws were, but it came to light when, basically every physics lab around the world tried to replicate their studies and when you set up the experiment the same way they did it and run it the same way they did it you did not get any evidence of cold fusion. No excess of energy. So they were doing something wrong. And that's why in science replication is critical. If something works in your lab you should be able to describe how you do it accurately enough that somebody following your procedure precisely should get the same results and if they don't then something's wrong.

P: And for some reason they bypassed the peer review.

S: Yes. That was...

E: That, yes.

S: that was their historic error.

P: Right.

S: Rather than trying to submit their results to peer review and the process of vetting in the scientific community they got so excited about their results and getting the Nobel Prize and being world famous and rich and all that stuff that they decided just to hold a press conference. And they basically became world famous boobs for doing that.

B: Oh my god, they...

P: (laughter)

B: essent–well, I–I don't think you could say their careers are ruined but just saying Pons and Fleischmann, what do you think of? You think of quacks.

S: That–they will forever define that phenomenon. Just bypassing...

P: Yep.

S: peer review and going to the press prematurely with a sensational claim that turns out not to be true. That is going to be the–what people remember about them. It will be...

E?: Legacy.

S: That's their legacy. I mean it will be very, very difficult for them, they really would have to do something, ya know, Watson and Crick like in order to–to break out of that legacy. They're...

P: And it's sad. It would still be mentioned.

S: It would still be a footnote.

B: Ya know it reminds me–it reminds me–alright, what–what is–what's Nobel, known for?

E: Dynamite?

S: The Nobel Prize. Although, he makes dynamite, yeah.

B: Well yeah–well, Nobel Prize. Everyone would say Nobel Prize. He–just an interesting little aside–little story. He–I guess his brother died, somebody with his name died, they thought it was him, he read his own obituary and it said the man who invented dynamite. And he did not want that legacy so because of that he–he set up the whole Nobel Prize fund and gave it tons of set it up in perpetuity after he died and now when anyone hears Nobel they don't think dynamite they think

B, S: Nobel Prize.

P: That's true.

E: Except skeptics.

S: Right.

E: We know the truth.

P: (laughter) Ah, that guy's nothing but a dynamite maker.

E: (laughter)

B: He thought dynamite was so powerful that it essentially end armed conflict and wars, but, or course, it just made them bigger and better and louder. It didn't end them, but he was kind of disappointed that it didn't have the anticipated effect.

References