SGU Episode 6

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SGU Episode 6
7th July 2005
(brief caption for the episode icon)
SGU 5                      SGU 7
Skeptical Rogues
S: Steven Novella
B: Bob Novella
E: Evan Bernstein
P: Perry DeAngelis
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Introduction

S: Hello and welcome to the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe. Today is Thursday, July 7th 2005. I'm you're host, Steven Novella, President of the New England Skeptical Society. With me tonight are Evan Bernstein...

E: Hi everyone.

S: Perry DeAngelis...

P: Present.

S: and Robert Novella.

B: Here.

News Items

London train bombing (0:25)

S: So dominating the news today, not a skeptical topic but but worthy of mention, was the massive terrorist attack on the London subway system. Um, the toll stands now at over, um, 40 killed and over 700 injured. Um, just a massive attack so of course our thoughts are with the families and victims of that horrible attack.

P: Amen.

Science Magazine's 125 unanswered questions (0:48)

S: I thought we would start today with, uh, just talking about Science Magazine, they have their 125^th anniversary and to commemorate that they have compiled, uh, 125 science questions that we still do not know and it's an interesting, an interesting, read.

P: I actually filled in the answers to those questions and sent them in to Science...

S: Did you?

P: they'll be in the next issue.

S: They're going to publish them next time?

P: Published in the next issue.

B: Perry, number 7 was wrong by the way.

P: (laugh) that's your opinion.

E: (laugh)

P: You're opinion.

S: So, uh, these are, uh, mostly big, huge science that uh still do not have an answer, for example, what controls organ regeneration? How does, how do, skin cells differentiate into nerve cells, uh, when an embryo is developing?

B: Skin cells? You mean they become skin cells first, then they become nerve cells? Don't they just go from like a stem cell to a nerve cell?

P: Let's ask a, a neurologist. Steve, how do, um, skin cells...

B: You know what I mean?

P: turn into nerve cells?

S: I don't think they're talking about a fully differentiated skin cell but more of a, a filler cell. The kind that, that would then like form scar tissue or cause regeneration in some animals.

P: So this sounds like it's part of the stem cell debate.

S: Yeah, it's definitely along that line. Um, they're talking about, I guess, adult derived stem cells...

P: That's the B-team of stem cells.

B: Rather specific to me and not more of a general statement.

S: How are memories stored and retrieved? Well we have somewhat of an answer.

B: Yeah, we got a decent idea about that.

S: One is are we alone in the universe. Still an unanswered question.

P: I just saw War of the Worlds I dunno.

S, B, E: (laugh)

B: Perry, what planet did you come from?

P: (laugh) That's a, that's a secret. That was question 126 I didn't quite make it...

B, E: (laugh)

P: on the list.

S: What are the limits of conventional computing?

B: Oh, come on. I've read articles about that.

S, E: (laugh)

S: So, you're not impressed with their, uh...

B: Not, not with a couple of them.

S: questions?

B: I mean, there are physical limits. Physics places limits on, on uh, on what computers can do. You know the, you know, if you had, if your, if your smallest element was an electron travelling at the speed of light then this is how fast your computer could possibly be, you know, including heat dissipation and all sorts of, well, you know, whatever maybe...

P: It's time for a trivia question. What is Data's (Star Trek Next Gen's) ultimate storage capacity?

B: Oh God it was like, uh... oo... 600...

P: Come on, Bob.

B: 600 petaflops?

(laughs)

P: That's not what he said.

E: Oh my god...

S: What did he say, Perry?

P: 800 quadrillion bits.

S: 800 quadrillion bits. That's a lot.

P: He announced it on one of the shows.

B: How many bytes is that?

E: Ya know I remember, I remember that and I remember calculating what exactly what that was and not being very impressed about it.

P: Really?

S: Yeah.

B: Well it was 1980... 9.

E: Considering...

P: Yeah think about how long ago that show was written.

B: I mean really it was pre, it was pre-internet, that show. Umm... and computers were far less powerful then they...

P: if it was...

E: Still...

P: If it was written today then it would have been considerably higher.

E: Still you would think, you know, they would, they would, take today's ultimate and just add, you know, add 4, you know, 4 orders of magnitude.

B: Right. A googleplex to the googleplex power...

E: (laugh)

B: or something like that.

P: That's true, in fact I'm often startled at, at, at, at the density of television writers. I'm really shocked.

E: (laugh).

S: Star Trek was notorious, notorious for techno babble. Scientific, technological sounding, you know, sound bites, but ultimately vacuous.

P: Right.

S: Here's a good one, um, can the laws of physics be unified? That is definitely...

E: Ah

S: and if so, how? That's a huge unanswered question.

E: It goes from questions like that to questions like this. What is the structure of water? I mean that sounds very basic. That sounds like something that scientists should be able to all agree on at this point of our knowledge of science, but...

S: They must, they must be talking about homeopathy.

E: Right. Researchers continue to tussle over how many bonds each H₂O molecule makes with it's nearest neighbors.

S: Huh.

E: That's fascinating.

S: Not, not the structure of a single water molecule, but the greater structure, the super structure of water. How they interact with each other.

P: How many bonds? Hmm.

E: How many bonds.

P: Count them. Are they individual?

E: It's either one or two. I don't know.

S: Well, um, while we're perusing this, uh, science trivia, that's a good segue into the next segment of our program which is Science or Fiction. (5:54)

B: Ooo.

E: Uh, fiction.

B: (laugh) Yes.

P: (laugh)

Science or Fiction (6:04)

VO: It's time to play Science OR Fiction

S: So the, there are, as, as we do each week I will introduce, uh, three science news items. Two are real, one is fake, and my skeptical colleagues will have to sniff out the fake science story. And typically I will make the fake one as plausible as possible but you have to, to know what the false element is to really figure it out.

E: I have a question before we continue.

S: Sure.

E: Did your false statement from last week turn out to be true this week?

S: Not as far as I know.

E: Well, then I guess the streak is officially over then?

S: The streak is over unless something crops up soon, but the, uh. Last week the false one was that, um, chimpanzees have been observed writing, communicating in written symbols, in written was the new element. So are you ready for the three items?

B: Yeah.

B: Sure.

S: Okay. Again I'll list all three and then, uh, I'll give you a chance to comment. Item number one, scientists have created a new form of matter called a super fluid gas. Item number two, scientists discovered the oldest living organism, a conifer, that's an evergreen tree, over 10,000 years old. And item number three, uh, scientists have discovered a fossil of a mammal with a dinosaur in it's stomach. So, those are the three items.

B: Well this is kinda weird because I actually think I've read about all three of those. But...

P: (laugh)

E: The third one sounds familiar to me.

S: One must be not, not quite true.

B: After the first two I'm thinking, "Oh, I got this one," then the third one

S: It's gotta be number three. They all sound plausible, huh?

P: Did you read about one of them in a comic book?

B: (laugh)

P: No. All right so we got super fluid gas. What is that? I don't know.

S: A new form of matter, called a super fluid gas.

P: Super fluid gas. And we got number three was a dinosaur in the stomach, and number two was the conifer 10,000 years old.

S: 10,000 years old.

E: At least the super fluid gas is not trading at $61 a barrel, I can guarantee that.

S: Probably much more.

P: Don't get me sh-tarted.

E: Yeah.

P: Uh...

E: But, we digress. I'm going to take a stab first. I'm going to say number three is the false one and I don't think, I, I think, and, here's my reasoning. I think there's uh, Steve, I think what you're doing is, uh, using the words, "mammal" and "dinosaur" and there's some kinda play in there, it's not quite exactly the way you phrased it. Something similar but not actually a dinosaur in the stomach of a mammal. So, I kinda think that's why number three I think is false.

S: But I will try not to, um, be tricky or or to play on words, and the scientific facts are either true or not true. So what we're talking about is that fossil evidence that a mammal had eaten a dinosaur.

E: I'll stay with number three.

S: Okay. Bob? Perry? What's your...

P: Bob is next.

S: Bob, is you gut talking to you?

B: Perry's next.

(laugh)

B: Yeah, my guts saying, "I have no idea because all, they all ring a bell with me. So, um, super fluid gas. I've read about the dinosaur and the mammal...

P: Bob you've gotta know about super fluid gas. You're mister physics.

B: (cough) Pardon me. Well I'm actually listing here the states of matter that I am familiar with and I come up with 5, uh 6. We got a gas, we got liquid, you have solid.

E: I know those three.

B: Right, you guys know those? And there's, uh, then there's a plasma...

P: Oh yeah.

B: which is basically um... molecules, uh, I mean atoms that have had their electrons ripped, ripped from the nucleus. Um... and that's like the atmosphere of the sun is a plasma and is, it is the most common phase of matter in the universe, is plasma. Then you got a Bose-Einstein condensate and a thermionic condensate and I did, I did read about another state that they were talking about and I kinda remember it being something like a super fluid gas.

P: Bo-bo-bo boson condesate?

B: Bose-Einstein condesate.

P: Is that the water that collects on cows in the morning?

(laugh)

B: Exactly. Exactly. Wow.

E: Bovine condensation.

B: I'm surprised you know that one that was good. Um...

P: Uh...

B: It's really a very interesting state of matter but, um... god super fluid gas. Connifer. The dino I'm most confident about. The conifer, god, I read something about, uh, uh, something tree related that was extremely old. Wow, Perry you go. I'ma have to mull this over a few more seconds.

P: Eh... have to guess. Mmmm... could a plant survive 10,000 years? I suppose it was frozen solid. Evergreen tree. Be in a cold climate. Be in a new cold climate, old cold climate. That seems possible. I have no idea about the super fluid gas, though, though that's an interesting term for Steve to just have come up with out of the blue. Maybe somebody was working on it or something. All right I'm I'm I'm guessing I'm gonna go with number one. I think number one is false.

S: Okay. Bob? Gotta gotta make a decision.

B: Yeah.

S: Put your nickle down.

B: I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with the super fluid gas. I think the, um, the name is subtly incorrect. Um... why, why would they have gas as a different state of matter when it can't really be a gas. Um... the conifer, man I remember maybe it wasn't quite 10,000 years maybe Steve is exaggerating the age a little, but I remember it was quiet quiet old. Maybe it's only 5,000 but I'm gonna go with the super fluid gas.

P: So we got two ones...

S: And a three.

P, E: And a three.

S: (laugh) Okay.

B: From that laugh, I uh...

S: So we'll take them in order we'll start with number one.

P: Alright.

S: MIT physicists create a new form of matter, is the headline. What they did was is they super cool a gas and the key is to get the gas to achieve a super fluid state. What they call high temperature super fluidity. Now, to them, high temperature...

B: Oh, high temperature.

S: yeah but high temperature, that was really the breakthrough but, this the high temperature is 50 billionths of a degree Kelvin. They call that high temperature. 50 nano-Kelvins. But that's higher than anyone has been able to do it before. And the importance is, you know, to super fluidity is sorta similar to super conductivity. It would be a very very useful property, um, for materials.

B: A super fluid, a super fluid could do very unusual things like like travel up hill things like that...

S: Right.

B: very bizarre behavior for super fluids.

S: So, they and they are calling it a super fluid gas. It is a gas. It is a fermion gas, Bob, you actually were very very close to that.

P: I said number one wasn't true, right?

E: Yes, that's right.

P: Why did I say that?

S: I dunno.

P: I mean I specifically said that's not something you'd make up.

S: I guess maybe you gave me more credit in the end.

P: I just I just got it wrong in my own head. I was stupid.

S: Okay.

B: No argument here.

P: Alright.

E: Let's move on.

S: Number two. The earth's oldest living inhabitant, called Methuselah, a biblical reference...

B: Yep.

S: is a bristlecone pine. The oldest single individual that has been recorded is 4,767 years. Very close to your guess of 5,000, Bob.

B: Ah, that why you laughed I knew it.

S: (laugh) 10,000 I doubled it 10,000. So that's the oldest living thing. 10,000 is too long. So that that's why that one is wrong.

B: Okay.

S: But there are bristlecone pine 4,767 years, is the oldest specific individual. There are many examples of them in California and in Japan, in, you know, two, three, 4,000 years old. And the third one was, is this is just you would have to hear it or not and this was a news item. Dinosaur was dinner at least once fossil shows mammals refused to be a victim and ate a satakasaur I think is how you pronounce it. So this is basically like a dog sized mammal that was around at the time of dinosaur eating basically basically like the biggest mammal at the time, or one of them, eating one of the smallest dinosaurs at the time.

P: What impact would this have on Kansas at all, Steve?

S: (laugh) It was the uh, I-I-I don't believe the fossil was discovered in Kansas. It was discovered...

E: China.

S: in China. In China. Other than that I don't... nothing.

P: You don't think it will have any impact on the intelligent design debate?

S: What? Evidence affecting intelligent design theory?

P: Yeah.

S: I doubt it. They're calling this the T-Rex of mammals. Mammoth Robustus. This is the first fossil evidence of any animal of any mammal having having eaten a dinosaur. It's interesting, it-it's a curiosity because the textbook, ya know, canonical story of...

B: Small rodents running around...

S: small rodent living in the shadow of the giant dinosaurs and dinosaurs eating mammals.

B: Way to go mammals.

E: It's all in the Bible.

S: So there you have it. So the, uh, first and the third one were correct and the second one was, uh, incorrect because I doubled the age of the oldest living tree from 5,000 approximately to 10,000.

P: Well, I want to disqualify myself this week based on stupidity.

E: We were, we were perfect this week. So we can move on.

S: K, cause, these are obviously designed to be uh to be very difficult it a test not only of your knowledge of scientific trivia but also just are you keeping up with the latest stories in the news.

E: And it's also an exercise to show people that no matter what people say may sound scientific but it could be far from true.

S: And you know some things that sound fantastical are can be true. Ya know like a 5,000 year old tree, that that's pretty out there.

P: Or birds that stay aloft for 10 years.

S: For ten years at a time right. Like the Sooty Tern from last week's, um, example.

P: There ya go.

S: So I will continue to...

E: I still want to see the 10 year video of that thing but that's another story.

P: It's all good.

S: I'll continue to scour the science news for the most extraordinary stories and this is sorta a fun way to hear about it.

More News Items

Tom Cruise (16:48)

S: Something else, speaking of funny items in the news and I'm sure all of you have heard or seen our friend Tom Cruise in the news in the last couple of weeks.

E: Your friend, Tom Cruise, yes.

S: As you may or may not know Tom Cruise, uh, who is, ya know, a very, very good actor, who is, ya know, box office smash, his movie out right now is War of the Worlds.

E: And as my wife says, "Not bad to look at either."

S: Not bad to look at either. Yeah, I think my wife conquers on that, as well. So, we, again, a brilliant actor, but, who also happens to be a Scientologist. Uh, ya know, Scientology is a 50 year old religion. Um, some people who are not charitable would call it a cult.

P: An actor's mind is a terrible thing to waste.

S: (laugh) Right. Scientology has actually aggressively, ya know, recruited, or prosthelytized to Hollywood stars, because it wants them as it's spokespeople, and, ya know, they've been successful, not only Tom Cruise but...

E: Kirstie Alley.

B: Oh, John Travolta.

S: and and others.

P: A few other assorted kooks.

S: Uh, but the Tom Cruise episode brought out one interesting aspect of Scientology that I dunno how many people are aware of and that's that Scientologists are very anti-psychiatry. They maintain that psychiatry, as Tom Cruise directly, Scientology is a pseu-, I mean that psychiatry is a pseudoscience and they deny essentially the entire modern discipline, modern science of mental health.

P: Tom Cruise said there is no such thing as a chemical imbalance.

S: Right. There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance.

E: The reason that he focuses on that, I believe, is cause the main thrust of all Scientology plays into that whole field so of course they, they feel that they have to, uh, ya know, support their, ya know, their, uh, mind view, if you will...

S: Right.

E: of how the human mind works, and that's why he has such a problem with it cause of, cause of what they believe.

S: Yeah, I mean, basically they're the creationists of mental illness. They-they oppose a specific scientific discipline because their religious faith disagrees with it. So that they, basically, mount a-a very aggressive sophisticated campaign against psychiatry the same way that Creationists mount a campaign against evolution. Uh, but on the surface the Scientologist's views of mental illness are the idea that all of our psychological problems, all of the baggage that we carry with us, is due to, what call engrams. Engrams are basically memories, subconscious memories, of past trauma, even going back to the womb, and that the only way to get rid of your mental illnesses or you psychological problems and is to clear yourself of these bad memories, these engrams and they're, the goal of Scientologists is to become what they call "a clear", basically cleared of engrams. Of course, ya know, as wacky as that may seem, as contradictory to, ya know, modern neurology, that's actually not the real belief's that they have, that's only the surface belief. That the Dianetics, ya know, level ideas that they have. In reality what they belief is that people are being parasitically infested by the spirits of dead space aliens that were exiled to Earth by, uh, an extraterrestrial dictator, which they call Xenu.

P: Oh Xenu. I-I think.

B?: Yeah.

E?: So Steve is it like a possession then? But they don't really see it really like a possession. But it sounds like possession to me.

S: Uhhh... yeah.

B?: Pretty much.

S: It's more of, it's more of a psychic parasite. Ya know, I think, is the, is the way they, so, which of course makes it interesting that, ya know, Tom Cruise, who thinks that alien parasites are sucking off our mental health calls psychiatry a pseudoscience. That is the pot calling the kettle black if ever there were one. But, I mean, it's-it's just ridiculous and it, but interestingly it, the Scientologists do find allies among others who also question the, uh, the basic tenets of psychiatry, that question the concepts of, um, ya know, mental illnesses being due to chemical imbalances in the brain. There is a, actually a psychiatrist who is now pushing 90 the guy's ancient, called Thomas Szasz, who, ya know 40-50 years ago he had some legitimate, ya know, criticisms of the way psychiatry was being practiced, uh, but basically all of his legitimate criticisms have been dealt with over the years and you know psychiatry is definitely a much more, ya know, humane... uh...

P: It's-It's matured. It's matured like all medical science has in the last 50 years.

S: Um, but, ya know, there are, ya know, you did not want to be mentally ill 50 years ago and be institutionalized. I mean...

P: Of course.

S: it was, you really had no rights. But tho-those issues really have been dealt with and led one, ya know, sort of critic of Thomas Szasz to comment that, ya know, that he should just declare victory and move on, I mean, the-the-the battle that he was fighting is over, but, ya know, he, Thomas Szasz and his disciples have taken, ya know, sort of criticism of some these sort of questionable ethics of old school, ya know, psychiatry to the point of saying there's no such thing as mental illness and uh, ya know, I have engaged in, ya know, debates and discussions with, ya know, dozens of people who hold that belief. I don't know if any of them were Scientologists, they might have been, they don't always, ya know, label themselves as such, um, but some certainly were not, they were psychologists or-or therapists or just, ya know, interested laypeople who have bought into this very elaborate belief system that I call psychiatry denial, which is just, or just a denial of mental illness. The silliest thing about it is-is that it really denies the basic fact that the brain is a biological organ, right? It's just like your liver.

P: (laugh)

S: Yeah?

P: It's true.

S: And just like your liver can fail and not function properly and have a, ya know, chemical imbalances and hypo or hyper functioning of different, ya know, aspects of the liver cells the same is true of your brain. I mean the only difference is the brain is a lot more complex which means there could be a lot more subtle imbalances.

P: I can speak from, uh, personal experience when I had some, uh, complications from surgery in 2000 I got delirium and, uh, started, uh, I was not in control of myself. I was in the hospital I thought aliens had kidnapped me and were, uh, whatever, I dunno, trying to do experiments on me, I guess. I pulled my feeding tube out of my nose, violently, swearing at people around me. I mean, I was, my brain was compromised...

S: Your brain was not functioning normally.

P: (laugh) by the, by the illness, and, ya know, I woke up to find, to find myself tied to the bed.

S: Yet there are those who would deny the very obvious and basic conclusion that your brain was not biologically functioning normally because, ya know, you had a fever and, uh, metabolic parameters were out of whack.

P: Right.

S: Uh, they would try to interpret that as, in, ya know, psychological terms, but in psychological terms it's meaningless. Your brain cells were not working. That's what it comes down to, but, ya know, Tom Cruise says there's no such thing as a chemical imbalance. He was very critical of Brooke Shields who had suffered from postpartum depression and took some anti-depressants which she says help-helped her a great deal. He made some comment about well-well all you need is vitamins and exercise, which is again, just, ya know, pulling nonsense...

E?: Yeah, where have we heard that before?

S: out of his butt. Anyway, so, I think a lot of the, some of the press focused a lot on just sort of, ya know, the religious aspects of Scientology or on his sorta extreme views, but, I hadn't I didn't really anyone make the connection between the really bizarre...

B?: Right.

S: beliefs of Scientology and what was motivating...

P: Nobody knows about it...

S: Tom Cruise...

P: that's why, Steve.

S: right, in his, ya know, denial of, ya know, behavioral neuroscience, basically. But again I do-I do think that the parallels between the psychiatry denial of Scientologists and evolution denial of Creationists are-are very real and very interesting they are-they're also, ya know, they're very telling, and one of the advantages of being what we call, we call ourselves, we're full service skeptics, ya know, we really deal all issues across the spectrum. The real advantage to that is that you see the underlying similarities. Ya know, they all use the same logical fallacies over and over again. The same, sort of, errors in thought. The same, ya know, strategies of denial. It doesn't really matter what the-what the-the topic is. Ya know, of course, if you gonna talk intelligently about a specific topic you do need to know the factual details. You know, you can't speak in a vacuum. You know what we call arm chair skepticism, which is just sorta, shooting from the hip, You do have to, sort of, know the-the nitty gritty details, but the-the flaws in logic and the mechanisms of deception that-that people employ are all the same. Whether you're a Scientologist or a Creationists or a-a you belief in ghosts or UFO's or Bigfoot, it doesn't matter.

E?: Wait, wait, what's wrong with Bigfoot?

P: (laugh)

S: (laugh)

P: UFO's sure, but that Bigfoot.

S: It's a great website. It's a very useful website, I like, I enjoy.

B?: Yeah, right?

P: (laugh)

S: Um...

E?: (laugh)

References