SGU Episode 872

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SGU Episode 872
March 26th 2022
(brief caption for the episode icon)
SGU 871                      SGU 873
Skeptical Rogues
S: Steven Novella
B: Bob Novella
C: Cara Santa Maria
J: Jay Novella
E: Evan Bernstein
Quote of the Week
For scientists, transparency is a way to promote reproducibility, progress, and trust in research. For philosophers of science, transparency can help address the value-ladenness of scientific research in a responsible way. Nevertheless, the concept of transparency is a complex one.
Kevin C. Elliott, American professor of Philosophy
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Show Notes
Forum Discussion

Introduction, DST year-round in USA

This section is in the middle of being transcribed by xanderox (talk) as of 2022-05-07. To help avoid duplication, please do not transcribe this section while this message is displayed.

Voice-over: You're listening to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe, your escape to reality.

S: Hello and welcome to the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe. Today is Tuesday, March 22nd, 2022, and this is your host, Steven Novella. Joining me this week are Bob Novella...

B: (pauses) Wait. What do I say? "Hey, everybody"? Hello? (Cara and Evan laugh.) Oh shoot. Crap. (feebly) What’s up!

S: Really?

Cara Santa Maria...

C: (laughing) Howdy.

S: Jay Novella...

J: Hey guys.

S: ...and Evan Bernstein.

E: I can’t top Bob, but hello, everyone.

S: Bob! Your second-worst intro ever.

(Rogues Laugh)

E: Oh snap!

J: That is saying something!

E: Ouch!

B: That’s what I was shootin' for.

E: Second-worst!

S: Good. Well, mission accomplished. (Cara and Evan laugh.)

Was it just last week? Last week we were talking about the fact that just, out of nowhere, the Senate unanimously passed this bill with a provision to make daylight savings time permanent, perennial—basically, year-round. And we all thought that was a great idea. And we got—this was our most email response-topic of the week. Just the—

E: —Definitely.

S: —offhand discussion that we were having. Everybody had basically the same feedback. We were saying how this was a great idea, but actually it’s controversial or it could be a bad idea, and there are concerns about going to perennial daylight savings time. But here’s the thing. We were only—there’s two components to this, right? One is making one time permanent, and then the other is—

C: —Right. Not which time is it.

S: —Yeah. Is it DST, daylight savings time, versus standard time. And we were only really talking about the first bit. It’s like, yes—and that is really not controversial. Everyone pretty much agrees, scientists, etc., no matter what angle you look at it, the feedback is, basically, everyone agrees we should have one, perennial time. And that most of the negative impacts come from the switching twice a year. Like there’s definitely an increase in car accidents after the "spring forward" and more heart attacks and things like that. So let’s talk about the second part, right, since we didn’t talk about that last week: daylight savings time versus standard time. What do you guys think?

C: So, if we stay on daylight saving, that means, then, that the Sun is up later?

S: Mm-hmm.

C: Well, okay.

B: Yep. Yeah.

C: The day is shorter, regardless, in the winter. Right? The Sun is out for less time in the winter, regardless.

J: Mm-hmm.

B: Right.

C: But if we stay on daylight saving, we’re pushing the Sun back slightly later, so there’s a chance that people are going to work and school in the dark. And that seems to be the biggest complaint, right?

S & J: Mm-hmm.

C: And so if we do it the opposite way, our day starts with more sun, but it gets dark earlier in the day.

S: Right.

C: I guess the question is, (laughing) which is more depressing? And also, which is—honestly, like from a public health perspective—which is healthier? I think early morning sun is probably healthier.

E: Hmm… (sighs)

J: Well the changing of time, I've read many, many, many times—because I think this article comes out every year—that when the time changes, people die because of it.

C: Well, yeah, but we’re saying, all things being equal, [if] there is no time shift, which one do we stick with?

E: Right. Which one do we lock in? The one where you get less sun in the morning or more sun in the evening? Err, no…

S: Those are the same thing, Evan.

B: Well it’s the same.

E: Yeah, it’s the same thing. (Rogues laugh.) More sun in the morning, more sun in the evening.

J: Evan solved the problem!

E: Yeah! Solved that.

J: I think we do the one that requires no change.

C: No, but any—either of them requires a change. (Steve and Evan laugh.) Either we default to daylight saving, or we default to standard time.

E: You have to choose one.

C: We’re going to change once.

J: Standard time all the way, 100%.

C: Okay. So if we stick—

J: —Guaranteed. No risk, guaranteed.

C: So if we stick with standard time, you’re saying what a lot of the emailers said, and what I just said about it's lighter earlier in the day.

J: Yeah.

S: Gets dark earlier in the evening.

C: The Sun’s going to set at like four o’clock—

E: —I don’t like that.

C: —in some parts of the country.

E: I like more light in the evening because—

B: —Me too.

E: —because if more—I imagine the majority of the people work a, sort of, the classic nine-to-five kind of workday. That extra hour in the evening of light allows you to do more activities in the evening, whereas you’re not going to be doing those activities anyways in the morning. You’re kind of squandering that morning light.

J: Well, Ev—

C: —Yeah, but from a purely circadian kind of health neurological perspective, waking up with the Sun is healthier. It is. Like, shift workers don’t do as well.

J: Wait—

S: —Well, that’s shift working, though. But hang on. So, now I’m going to give you the actual answer. (Evan Laughs.)

C: Oh, come on! (Rogues laugh)

E: I didn’t realize this was a—

S: —And the answer is—

E: —Science or Fiction.

S: —my favorite answer to these questions: it’s complicated. (Evan laughs.)

C: Aww!

S: But I did do a deep dive onto this one. What does the science say? Because right after this happened, the American Sleep Association said, "No, this is bad. It should be standard time because—" So there’s this concept of social jet lag—

J & C: Mm-hmm.

S: —which is a disconnect between your work hours, like when you get up and go to bed, and the sunrise and sunset. And they said that standard time is better aligned with our circadian rhythm than daylight saving time.

C: Yeah!

B: Wait. So which one is standard, then? Just make that clear.

C: Standard is earlier sun.

S: Standard time is—

E: —More sun in the morning.

S: Yeah. So, like, in the winter that—winter is standard time; the summer is daylight saving time.

E: For us in the northern hemisphere.

S: Doesn't matter what hemisphere you’re in.

E: It doesn't?

S: I said seasons, not months.

E: Oh right, okay.

S: But in any case, so if we take just the purely scientific view rather than the personal choice view, it’s what I’m saying. The scientific view—

C: —That’s what I was making an argument for!

S: I agree with you that—I agree that that's the standard—the answer, then. But I looked into that, and that’s actually a really shaky conclusion. So there was a systematic review that was published a couple years ago because this question keeps coming up and coming up. And they said, "You know…the data is really not there, and scientists should be a little bit more soft on their recommendations." First of all, we don’t really have any head-to-head dst versus standard time scientific studies. We just don’t. So we—

C: —But we must have studies of people who work an earlier shift versus people who—like, people who drive to work in the dark versus people who drive to work in the light.

S: Well, again, what I'm reading is we don’t really have any head-to-head studies.

C: Hmm.

S: So everything is inferred mainly from the time shifting, and that's not really a good, you know, because you—

C: —Not at all.

S: Yeah.

B: Yeah.

S: And so the real answer is we don’t know. But, having said that, if you take the evidence that we do have, what you could say is, "All right. Even though it’s secondary sort of inferential, it does—it is leaning towards that standard time is better than daylight saving time." But—

B: —Why?

S: —the effect size is not that big!

C: Yeah.

S: And that’s the other thing. It’s like, okay, sure, but does it really matter?

B: It doesn’t matter anyway.

S: Is it—

C: —What about all the people who wrote in to say, "We tried that."

S: Well, yeah.

C: We tried that for two years, to shift to daylight saving, and everybody freaked out and hated it, and we shifted back.

News Items

S:

B:

C:

J:

E:

(laughs) (laughter) (applause) [inaudible]

SLS is Here (18:06)

• It's huge, expensive, and years late—but the SLS rocket is finally here

COVID Brain (29:59)

• What do we mean by 'COVID-19 changes your brain'?

Origin of Life (40:22)

• Origins of Life From RNA

Orbiting Solar Power (52:23)

• The UK reportedly wants to build a massive solar station in space — how would it work?

[use "link needed" template, as in S: We discussed this story on a previous show/we've talked about this before^{[link needed]}. ]

Antarctic Temperature (1:05:30)

• It's 70 degrees warmer than normal in eastern Antarctica. Scientists are flabbergasted.

Who's That Noisy? (1:12:07)

Answer to previous Noisy:

Lithium-ion battery in thermal runaway after being punctured

New Noisy (1:15:54)

[creepy, eerie, ringing tones]

J: ... So if you think what this week's Noisy is, guys, or if you heard something cool -- ...

Science or Fiction (1:29:59)

Theme: Bread Item #1: In 1943 sliced bread was banned in the US, with threats of "stern action" against private shops slicing bread, but the order was rescinded within 2 months due to public outrage. Item #2: Physicists recently developed a technique for leavening bread without yeast or chemicals by directly dissolving gas into the dough. Item #3: A recent systematic review of studies concluded that increased average daily bread consumption, regardless of type, is associated with a reduced risk of obesity and becoming overweight.

Answer	Item
Fiction	More bread, less obese
Science	Leavening with gas
Science	Bread ban rescinded

Host	Result
Steve	swept

Rogue	Guess
Cara	More bread, less obese
Bob	More bread, less obese
Evan	More bread, less obese
Jay	More bread, less obese

Voice-over: It's time for Science or Fiction.

Steve Explains Item #1

...purchase...

Skeptical Quote of the Week (1:52:48)

For scientists, transparency is a way to promote reproducibility, progress, and trust in research. For philosophers of science, transparency can help address the value-ladenness of scientific research in a responsible way. Nevertheless, the concept of transparency is a complex one.
– Kevin C. Elliott, American professor of Philosophy at Michigan State University

Signoff/Announcements

S: —and until next week, this is your Skeptics' Guide to the Universe.

S: Skeptics' Guide to the Universe is produced by SGU Productions, dedicated to promoting science and critical thinking. For more information, visit us at theskepticsguide.org. Send your questions to info@theskepticsguide.org. And, if you would like to support the show and all the work that we do, go to patreon.com/SkepticsGuide and consider becoming a patron and becoming part of the SGU community. Our listeners and supporters are what make SGU possible.

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