SGUTranscripts - User contributions [en]

5X5 Episode 33

2012-10-21T23:56:24Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 editing required 
|proof-reading = y 
|formatting = y
|links = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}
{{Template:5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 33
|Contents = The Shroud of Turin - Shroud scientists try to resurrect the controversy
|episodeDate = 20th August 2008
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=33
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=13277.0
|}}
== The Shroud of Turin - Shroud scientists try to resurrect the controversy ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5x5, and tonight's topic is the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin shroud of Turin]. Researchers John and Rebecca Jackson are calling for reinvestigation of the famous [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_14 carbon-14] dating that dated the shroud of Turin to the mid 14th century, the same century that other lines of evidence also point to.

B: Well, you know what? I say go ahead, retest it! You know… redo the carbon dating, let them do it and let's see what the conclusions are with some more modern technology and everything, like… who cares?

R: The only problem I see… I'm fine with a close circuit of idiots testing and retesting and retesting the thing, but the fact is it's been debunked so many times! [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Nickell Joe Nickell] debunked it conclusively, and you know… it's kind of wasting newspaper space. Now it's in the [http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/17/nation/na-turin17 L.A. Times]. I mean, shroud of Turin stirs new controversy, really?? I mean, come on people, we're pretty much over this!

B: But we can't expect the media to do it correctly, but the bottom line is I would actually like to see it happen again. And I think it's not a bad thing for them to retest it with modern equipment, because every time they retest it and they say 'no, it isn't' and another generation of people gets to hear that it's not the real thing.

E: Yeah, but here's the reason why they want to retest it. They said at a conference sponsored by the Shroud Science group at Ohio State University the past weekend. [http://www.lanl.gov/index.php Los Alamos National Laboratory] presented findings that the 1988 test results were flawed, because samples tested came from a portion of the cloth that may have been added to the shroud during medieval repairs.

S: Yeah , that's lame! So here's why this is completely lame. The artistic evidence, the historical evidence , all points to a medieval forgery. A 14th century forgery. The three independent labs did the carbon-14 dating in 1988 and they found that it dates to the mid 14th century, like 1349-50 , within a very very small margin of error. The shroud scientists, those who are claimed to be scientifically investigation the shroud, but who clearly are dedicated to the conclusion that it's a 2000 year old genuine artifact from Jesus. They have been fishing for any excuse to debunk the carbon 14 dating. Initially they said it was from bacterial contamination throwing the data off. Now they're saying it's from the repairs sections, and they said maybe it was the fire… they keep going for one excuse to the other one. But here's the thing: what they're saying is that whatever contaminated the shroud to throw off the carbon-14 dating happened to throw it off exactly by the right amount to make the date come out to exactly what we predicted it would be based upon all the other lines of evidence. That makes it .. an extraordinary coincidence if they're right. These guys have made many other claims before as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Schafersman Steven Schfersman], whose a geologist who maintains a website, skeptical to the shroud said. He's had other ideas but they 've all been shut down and this one would be shut down too.

B: Plus… the repairs seems pretty funny to me, because when you look at a high res image of the shroud , the repairs from the burns and the fire that the shroud suffered, it's pretty obvious where they are and where the damage was. I just can't imagine you cutting snippets off at the shroud and you're gonna...

S: Yeah...

B: … you're gonna pull it from these areas that were blatantly repaired areas. To me that was very surprising that they would even suggest that.

E: They're suggesting that the sciences back in 1988 totally screwed up, effectively.

J: So let them go through the process again. We will see the results, and no one really is gonna be harmed by them going through this testing again. I think it would be a good exercise just to reestablish the fact that the carbon dating was correct the first time.

S: But you know what's gonna happen. The carbon dating would confirm the date approximately, and it will change nobody's mind. The shroud's scientists will not all alter they're opinions, because obviously they're not swayed by evidence. They'll find some new round of excuses, cause they want to test and test and retest until they come up with the result that they want.

R: Yeah , I think that this is just a way to get it back in the news and to get it back in peoples' minds, when it should be something that quietly fades away and is never seen again. There are so many valid criticisms even aside from the carbon dating. It's… I mean it's just silly… like, let it die. It's not real, people!

B: And what really upset me… the 1 line that upset me more than anything in this article, and it really made me really realize that they would just… the facts are kinda meaningless things to them. The article says that they concluded that the shroud was not painted, dyed or stained, and that the blood stains were real. That was a supposed conclusion from the 1978 team of scientists 'led by Jackson'.

E: Uhmmm...

B: My God! That can't be further from the truth. If you can't even get that information right… I mean, each pretty much generally believed now that the … it's paint … from all the scientific studies done, this was paint, and there is no blood on it. And they can't even believe that by now, then the facts don't mean anything.

R: Exactly!

B: Have any of you guys seen the technique where they carve a bronze plate to look like a face and its sloped in a 3D… the carving is 3D and then what they do is they heat the plate up and then they kind of burn the image onto the cloth? That is 1 techniques that they mentioned.

S: Yeah… there are different techniques that can exactly duplicate the shroud, Bob's right. There's paint on the shroud, not blood. Every independent scientist that didn't dedicate they're life to proving that it was a miraculous relic has come up to the conclusion this is a medieval forgery. It's only people dedicated a priori to the belief that it's the burial shroud of Jesus who come up with these different findings.

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

5X5 Episode 33

2012-10-21T23:54:56Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 editing required 
|proof-reading = y 
|formatting = y
|links = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}
{{Template:5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 33
|Contents = The Shroud of Turin - Shroud scientists try to resurrect the controversy
|episodeDate = 20th August 2008
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=33
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=13277.0
|}}
== The Shroud of Turin - Shroud scientists try to resurrect the controversy ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5x5, and tonight's topic is the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin shroud of Turin]. Researchers John and Rebecca Jackson are calling for reinvestigation of the famous [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_14 carbon-14] dating that dated the shroud of Turin to the mid 14th century, the same century that other lines of evidence also point to.

B: Well, you know what? I say go ahead, retest it! You know… redo the carbon dating, let them do it and let's see what the conclusions are with some more modern technology and everything, like… who cares?

R: The only problem I see… I'm fine with a close circuit of idiots testing and retesting and retesting the thing, but the fact is it's been debunked so many times! [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Nickell Joe Nickell] debunked it conclusively, and you know… it's kind of wasting newspaper space. Now it's in the [http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/17/nation/na-turin17 L.A. Times]. I mean, shroud of Turin stirs new controversy, really?? I mean, come on people, we're pretty much over this!

B: But we can't expect the media to do it correctly, but the bottom line is I would actually like to see it happen again. And I think it's not a bad thing for them to retest it with modern equipment, because every time they retest it and they say 'no, it isn't' and another generation of people gets to hear that it's not the real thing.

E: Yeah, but here's the reason why they want to retest it. They said at a conference sponsored by the Shroud Science group at Ohio State University the past weekend. [http://www.lanl.gov/index.php Los Alamos National Laboratory] presented findings that the 1988 test results were flawed, because samples tested came from a portion of the cloth that may have been added to the shroud during medieval repairs.

S: Yeah , that's lame! So here's why this is completely lame. The artistic evidence, the historical evidence , all points to a medieval forgery. A 14th century forgery. The three independent labs did the carbon-14 dating in 1988 and they found that it dates to the mid 14th century, like 1349-50 , within a very very small margin of error. The shroud scientists, those who are claimed to be scientifically investigation the shroud, but who clearly are dedicated to the conclusion that it's a 2000 year old genuine artifact from Jesus. They have been fishing for any excuse to debunk the carbon 14 dating. Initially they said it was from bacterial contamination throwing the data off. Now they're saying it's from the repairs sections, and they said maybe it was the fire… they keep going for one excuse to the other one. But here's the thing: what they're saying is that whatever contaminated the shroud to throw off the carbon-14 dating happened to throw it off exactly by the right amount to make the date come out to exactly what we predicted it would be based upon all the other lines of evidence. That makes it .. an extraordinary coincidence if they're right. These guys have made many other claims before as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Schafersman Steven Schfersman], whose a geologist who maintains a website, skeptical to the shroud said. He's had other ideas but they 've all been shut down and this one would be shut down too.

B: Plus… the repairs seems pretty funny to me, because when you look at a high res image of the shroud , the repairs from the burns and the fire that the shroud suffered, it's pretty obvious where they are and where the damage was. I just can't imagine you cutting snippets off at the shroud and you're gonna...

S: Yeah...

B: … you're gonna pull it from these areas that were blatantly repaired areas. To me that was very surprising that they would even suggest that.

E: They're suggesting that the sciences back in 1988 totally screwed up, effectively.

J: So let them go through the process again. We will see the results, and no one really is gonna be harmed by them going through this testing again. I think it would be a good exercise just to reestablish the fact that the carbon dating was correct the first time.

S: But you know what's gonna happen. The carbon dating would confirm the date approximately, and it will change nobody's mind. The shroud's scientists will not all alter they're opinions, because obviously they're not swayed by evidence. They'll find some new round of excuses, cause they want to test and test and retest until they come up with the result that they want.

R: Yeah , I think that this is just a way to get it back in the news and to get it back in peoples' minds, when it should be something that quietly fades away and is never seen again. There are so many valid criticisms even aside from the carbon dating. It's… I mean it's just silly… like, let it die. It's not real, people!

B: And what really upset me… the 1 line that upset me more than anything in this article, and it really made me really realize that they would just… the facts are kinda meaningless things to them. The article says that they concluded that the shroud was not painted, dyed or stained, and that the blood stains were real. That was a supposed conclusion from the 1978 team of scientists 'led by Jackson'.

E: Uhmmm...

B: My God! That can't be further from the truth. If you can't even get that information right… I mean, each pretty much generally believed now that the … it's paint … from all the scientific studies done, this was paint, and there is no blood on it. And they can't even believe that by now, then the facts don't mean anything.

R: Exactly!

B: Have any of you guys seen the technique where they carve a bronze plate to look like a face and its sloped in a 3D… the carving is 3D and then what they do is they heat the plate up and then they kind of burn the image onto the cloth? That is 1 techniques that they mentioned.

S: Yeah… there are different techniques that can exactly duplicate the shroud, Bob's right. There's paint on the shroud, not blood. Every independent scientist that didn't dedicate they're life to proving that it was a miraculous relic has come up to the conclusion this is a medieval forgery. It's only people dedicated a priori to the belief that it's the burial shroud of Jesus who come up with this different findings.

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

5X5 Episode 33

2012-10-21T23:52:55Z

Dasaratha: Created page with "{{5X5 editing required  |proof-reading = y <!-- please only include when some transcription is pr..."

{{5X5 editing required 
|proof-reading = y 
|formatting = y
|links = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}
{{Template:5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 33
|Contents = Faith-healing cults
|episodeDate = 20th August 2008
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=33
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=13277.0
|}}

S: This is the SGU 5x5, and tonight's topic is the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin shroud of Turin]. Researchers John and Rebecca Jackson are calling for reinvestigation of the famous [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_14 carbon-14] dating that dated the shroud of Turin to the mid 14th century, the same century that other lines of evidence also point to.

B: Well, you know what? I say go ahead, retest it! You know… redo the carbon dating, let them do it and let's see what the conclusions are with some more modern technology and everything, like… who cares?

R: The only problem I see… I'm fine with a close circuit of idiots testing and retesting and retesting the thing, but the fact is it's been debunked so many times! [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Nickell Joe Nickell] debunked it conclusively, and you know… it's kind of wasting newspaper space. Now it's in the [http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/17/nation/na-turin17 L.A. Times]. I mean, shroud of Turin stirs new controversy, really?? I mean, come on people, we're pretty much over this!

B: But we can't expect the media to do it correctly, but the bottom line is I would actually like to see it happen again. And I think it's not a bad thing for them to retest it with modern equipment, because every time they retest it and they say 'no, it isn't' and another generation of people gets to hear that it's not the real thing.

E: Yeah, but here's the reason why they want to retest it. They said at a conference sponsored by the Shroud Science group at Ohio State University the past weekend. [http://www.lanl.gov/index.php Los Alamos National Laboratory] presented findings that the 1988 test results were flawed, because samples tested came from a portion of the cloth that may have been added to the shroud during medieval repairs.

S: Yeah , that's lame! So here's why this is completely lame. The artistic evidence, the historical evidence , all points to a medieval forgery. A 14th century forgery. The three independent labs did the carbon-14 dating in 1988 and they found that it dates to the mid 14th century, like 1349-50 , within a very very small margin of error. The shroud scientists, those who are claimed to be scientifically investigation the shroud, but who clearly are dedicated to the conclusion that it's a 2000 year old genuine artifact from Jesus. They have been fishing for any excuse to debunk the carbon 14 dating. Initially they said it was from bacterial contamination throwing the data off. Now they're saying it's from the repairs sections, and they said maybe it was the fire… they keep going for one excuse to the other one. But here's the thing: what they're saying is that whatever contaminated the shroud to throw off the carbon-14 dating happened to throw it off exactly by the right amount to make the date come out to exactly what we predicted it would be based upon all the other lines of evidence. That makes it .. an extraordinary coincidence if they're right. These guys have made many other claims before as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Schafersman Steven Schfersman], whose a geologist who maintains a website, skeptical to the shroud said. He's had other ideas but they 've all been shut down and this one would be shut down too.

B: Plus… the repairs seems pretty funny to me, because when you look at a high res image of the shroud , the repairs from the burns and the fire that the shroud suffered, it's pretty obvious where they are and where the damage was. I just can't imagine you cutting snippets off at the shroud and you're gonna...

S: Yeah...

B: … you're gonna pull it from these areas that were blatantly repaired areas. To me that was very surprising that they would even suggest that.

E: They're suggesting that the sciences back in 1988 totally screwed up, effectively.

J: So let them go through the process again. We will see the results, and no one really is gonna be harmed by them going through this testing again. I think it would be a good exercise just to reestablish the fact that the carbon dating was correct the first time.

S: But you know what's gonna happen. The carbon dating would confirm the date approximately, and it will change nobody's mind. The shroud's scientists will not all alter they're opinions, because obviously they're not swayed by evidence. They'll find some new round of excuses, cause they want to test and test and retest until they come up with the result that they want.

R: Yeah , I think that this is just a way to get it back in the news and to get it back in peoples' minds, when it should be something that quietly fades away and is never seen again. There are so many valid criticisms even aside from the carbon dating. It's… I mean it's just silly… like, let it die. It's not real, people!

B: And what really upset me… the 1 line that upset me more than anything in this article, and it really made me really realize that they would just… the facts are kinda meaningless things to them. The article says that they concluded that the shroud was not painted, dyed or stained, and that the blood stains were real. That was a supposed conclusion from the 1978 team of scientists 'led by Jackson'.

E: Uhmmm...

B: My God! That can't be further from the truth. If you can't even get that information right… I mean, each pretty much generally believed now that the … it's paint … from all the scientific studies done, this was paint, and there is no blood on it. And they can't even believe that by now, then the facts don't mean anything.

R: Exactly!

B: Have any of you guys seen the technique where they carve a bronze plate to look like a face and its sloped in a 3D… the carving is 3D and then what they do is they heat the plate up and then they kind of burn the image onto the cloth? That is 1 techniques that they mentioned.

S: Yeah… there are different techniques that can exactly duplicate the shroud, Bob's right. There's paint on the shroud, not blood. Every independent scientist that didn't dedicate they're life to proving that it was a miraculous relic has come up to the conclusion this is a medieval forgery. It's only people dedicated a priori to the belief that it's the burial shroud of Jesus who come up with this different findings.

Template:5X5 episode list

2012-10-21T23:38:13Z

Dasaratha:

<noinclude>This template is used to display the list of 5X5 episodes on the [[Main Page]] and the [[5X5 Episodes]] page. Additions and amendments to this template will be reflected on those pages.

For help on how to add a new row, see [[Template:5X5 list entry]].
</noinclude>

{|class="wikitable sortable" style="margin: 1em 3em;"
!No.!!class="unsortable"|Date!!Contents!!Categories
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 113
|date = May 9 2012
|contents = What's the Harm?
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
|category3 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status =
|episode = 112
|date = May 2 2012
|contents = Anecdotal Evidence
|category1 = Legal Issues & Regulations
|category2 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category3 = Neuroscience & Psychology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 111
|date = Apr 25 2012
|contents = Facilitated Communication
|category1 = Pseudoscience
|category2 = Myths & Misconceptions
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 110
|date = Apr 11 2012
|contents = Naturalistic Fallacy
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 109
|date = Apr 4 2012
|contents = Celebrity Pseudoscience
|category1 = Pseudoscience
|category2 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 108
|date = Mar 28 2012
|contents = Cancer Cure
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Conspiracy Theories
|category3 = Pseudoscience
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 107
|date = Mar 21 2012
|contents = Chilean UFO
|category1 = UFOs & Aliens
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 106
|date = Mar 19 2012
|contents = Availability Heuristic
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 105
|date = Mar 7 2012
|contents = Representativeness Heuristic
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 104
|date = Feb 22 2012
|contents = WiFi
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 103
|date = Feb 15 2012
|contents = Creationism
|category1 = Creationism & ID
|category2 = Science & Education
|category3 = Legal Issues & Regulations}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 102
|date = Feb 8 2012
|contents = Biofuels
|category1 = General Science
|category2 =
|category3 =
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 101
|date = Jan 26 2011
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Slippery Slope/Post Hoc
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 100
|date = Jan 13 2011
|contents = Testable
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 99
|date = Jan 5 2011
|contents = Graphology
|category1 = History
|category2 = Pseudoscience
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 98
|date = Dec 30 2010
|contents = Harry Houdini
|category1 = History
|category2 = Paranormal
|category3 = Ghosts & Demons
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 97
|date = Dec 20 2010
|contents = Repressed Memories
|category1 = Neuroscience & Psychology
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 96
|date = Nov 9 2010
|contents = Magnets
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 95
|date = Sep 21 2010
|contents = Chelation
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Alternative Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 94
|date = Sep 12 2010
|contents = Nostradamus
|category1 = Prophecy
|category2 = History
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 93
|date = Aug 13 2010
|contents = Chiropractic - Part 3
|category1 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 92
|date = Jul 28 2010
|contents = Chiropractic - Part 2
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = History
|category3 = Legal Issues & Regulations
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 91
|date = Jul 13 2010
|contents = Chiropractic - Part 1
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = History
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 90
|date = Jun 29 2010
|contents = The Unification Church
|category1 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 83
|date = Dec 20 2009
|contents = Irreducible Complexity
|category1 = Creationism & ID
|category2 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 81
|date = Nov 18 2009
|contents = Naturopathy
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 80
|date = Oct 28 2009
|contents = Polygraphs
|category1 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 75
|date = Aug 12 2009
|contents = The Coriolis Effect
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 72
|date = Jul 16 2009
|contents = Randi Million Dollar Psychic Challenge and Connie Sonne
|category1 = Pseudoscience
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 68
|date = May 22 2009
|contents = Near Death Experiences
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 67
|date = Apr 30 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Special Pleading
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 65
|date = Apr 16 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Scientific Theory
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 62
|date = Mar 19 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - How to Argue
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 56
|date = Feb 4 2009
|contents = Probability
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 55
|date = Jan 28 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Poisoning the Well
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 54
|date = Jan 21 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - False Dichotomy
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 53
|status = verified
|date = Jan 13 2009
|contents = Anecdotal Evidence
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
|category3 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 52
|date = Jan 6 2009
|contents = Atlantis
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 50
|date = Dec 15 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - The Argument from Ignorance
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 49
|date = Dec 8 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Argument from Authority
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 48
|date = Dec 1 2008
|contents = The 10% Brain Myth
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 46
|date = Nov 18 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Correlation and Causation
|category1 = General Science
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 45
|date = Nov 11 2008
|contents = Chi and other forms of vitalism
|category1 = Energy Healing
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 43
|date = Oct 29 2008
|contents = Holocaust Denial
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = History

}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 38
|date = Sep 24 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Pareidolia
|category1 = Nature & Evolution
|category2 = Neuroscience & Psychology
|category3 = Paranormal
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 33
|date = Aug 20 2008
|contents = The Shroud of Turin - Shroud scientists try to resurrect the controversy
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Religion and Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 31
|date = Aug 4 2008
|contents = Digital Homeopathy 20 years after Benveniste
|category1 = Homeopathy
|category2 = Pseudoscience
|category3 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 30
|date = Jul 29 2008
|contents = Evaluation of a UCONN study of therapeutic touch on bone cells in culture
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = New Age
|category3 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 28
|date = July 13 2008
|contents = Exposing the logical fallacy of equating faith healing with medical care.
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
|category2 = Pseudoscience
|category3 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 26
|date = June 29 2008
|contents = New study sheds light on genetic vs environmental contributions to sexuality.
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 25
|date = June 22 2008
|contents = NASA Plans Probe to the Sun.
|category1 = Astronomy & Space Science
|category2 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 24
|date = June 15 2008
|contents = New strategy for SETI - The Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence.
|category1 = Astronomy & Space Science
|category2 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 23
|date = June 08 2008
|contents = Lame car design analogy to intelligent design from the Discovery Institute.
|category1 = Creationism & ID
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
|category3 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 22
|date = June 01 2008
|contents = Researchers allow monkey to control robotic arm with its mind.
|category1 = Technology
|category2 = Neuroscience & Psychology
|category3 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 21
|date = May 25 2008
|contents = Family claims women miraculously brought back to life after rigor mortis
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Science & the Media
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 20
|date = May 18 2008
|contents = SPAM Chainletter e-mails do not spread as virally as thought
|category1 = Technology
|category2 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 19
|date = May 11 2008
|contents = The Science of Science Fiction Movies
|category1 = Entertainment
|category2 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 18
|date = May 4 2008
|contents = Man Regenerates Finger - Bad Science News Reporting
|category1 = Science & the Media
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 17
|date = Apr 27 2008
|contents = T-Rex proteins closely related to chickens
|category1 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 16
|date = Apr 20 2008
|contents = Surgery under hypnosis.
|category1 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 15
|date = Apr 13 2008
|contents = Examining a fossilized snake - with legs.
|category1 = Nature & Evolution
|category2 = Creationism & ID
|category3 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 14
|date = Apr 6 2008
|contents = Nomophobia - the fear of being out of cell phone range.
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 13
|date = Mar 30 2008
|contents = Man convicted of molestation claims he was raped by Bigfoot
|category1 = Cryptozoology
|category2 = Legal Issues & Regulations
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 12
|date = Mar 23 2008
|contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Energy Healing
|category3 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 11
|date = Mar 16 2008
|contents = Art project to give the city of Portland, Oregon acupuncture
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Energy Healing
|category3 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 10
|status = verified
|date = Mar 9 2008
|contents = Steven Spielberg to create new paranormal online community
|category1 = Paranormal
|category2 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 9
|status = verified
|date = Mar 2 2008
|contents = An Emmy award winning actress and her 911 conspiracy theory
|category1 = Conspiracy Theories
|category2 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 8
|status = verified
|date = Feb 23 2008
|contents = Cryptozoology - Hunting for the Thunderbird
|category1 = Cryptozoology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 7
|status = verified
|date = Feb 17 2008
|contents = Proposed center for exorcism in Poland
|category1 = Ghosts & Demons
|category2 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 6
|status = verified
|date = Feb 11 2008
|contents = Dr. Harris's Pain Relief Snake Oil Infomercial
|category1 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
|category2 = Alternative Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 5
|date = Feb 3 2008
|contents = Pope Benedict XVI takes on science
|category1 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 4
|date = Jan 28 2008
|contents = Do celebrity deaths come in threes? The rogues take on numerology
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Paranormal
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 3
|date = Jan 21 2008
|contents = Multilevel Marketing and Pyramid Schemes
|category1 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 2
|date = Jan 13 2008
|contents = Ghost Photographs
|category1 = Paranormal
|category2 = Ghosts & Demons
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 1
|date = Jan 6 2008
|contents = The National Health Service of the UK plans to regulate alternative medicine
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Pseudoscience
}}
|}

5X5 Episode 28

2012-10-21T00:00:04Z

Dasaratha: Created page with "{{5X5 editing required  |proof-reading = y <!-- please only include when some transcription is pr..."

{{5X5 editing required 
|proof-reading = y 
|formatting = y
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{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 28
|Contents = Exposing the logical fallacy of equating faith healing with medical care.
|episodeDate = 13th July 2008
|previous = 27
|next = 29
|verified =
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=28
|forumLink =
|}}
== Exposing the logical fallacy of equating faith healing with medical care. ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5x5 and tonight we're doing a name-that-logical-fallacy. This email comes from Joseph Bernanke from Madison, Wisconsin, and Joseph writes:"Hi guys! I think I have a tricky logical fallacy for you. You probably remember the tragic story of Karen Newman, the 11-year-old girl who died from untreated diabetes as their parents attempted to heal her by prayer. Well, the faith healing group her parents belonged to made the following statement:" If you persecute faith healers when their patients dies, you must persecute doctors for every patient of theirs who dies. As far as I can tell, they commit the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation equivocation logical fallacy] in that they equate the healing you get from prayer with the healing you get from modern medicine, but since that's not a fallacy heard about every day , I could be misapplying it. I'd like to hear what you think is specifically wrong about this statement. Thanks!"

R: That sound suspiciously like false analogy to me.

J: I agree!

R: … indicating that the healing from doctors is the same as from the frauds, and therefore they should be treated the same, when in fact they're not and they shouldn't.

S: Yes, I agree. I think that Joseph was getting at that, although he used the wrong term. 'Equivocation' refers to using ambiguous statements. That's a logical fallacy deriving from ambiguity. This is, I agree Rebecca, a false analogy or you can also look at it another way, that there's an unstated major premise- that premise being that praying for someone to get them better is equivalent to modern medicine. The other thing that they're assuming is equivalent is the ethics concern. There's … it's actually not a problem that they prayed for their daughter. And again very quickly for those of you who may not know the backstory: 11 year old girl, parent belong to … you know… a faith healing cult that issues modern medicine… She died of a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetic_ketoacidosis diabetic ketoacidosis]. That means that she had untreated diabetes that went untreated for a long period of time. She must've been very ill for days at least. And in fact, the parents never brought her to medical attention. It was her aunt who called 9-1-1 and tried to get the police to intervene , because the family refused any care for her. By the time they got there , unfortunately, she was already dead and they could not revive her. So… but it really isn't a problem that they were praying for her. The problem is that they failed to provide the minimal standard of care for the child. And in fact, if a physician failed to deliver the minimal standard of care then they will be liable for that as well. It was the fact that, not that she was praying for her , but that she was not treated. That was the problem.

J: Well Steve, being treated is up to the parents, you know? That's a definition that is in standard… they think they were treating her, as best they could.

S: They… and that is what they said. They said 'we were just doing the best that we knew how to for our daughter'. But it's established, it's well established that you are not allowed to neglect basic needs for survival for your children. Adults can decide that they do not want to be treated medically, but they cannot make that decision for their children. So they failed to do the minimum necessary to provide life sustaining intervention for their child. That's the equivalent of starving a child to death- not providing food. It doesn't matter what the reason is, you're not allowed to make that decision for your children.

E: This is an attempt to justify their transgressions or their wrong actions, because it happens in other cases as well, which is the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque tu quoque] logical fallacy. So, what their saying is that because people sometimes die at the hands of doctors legally, why should it be criminal when people die at the hands of faith healers.

S: Right, doctors' patients sometimes die. So it's ok if faith healers … administrations of faith healers decide that their 'patients' - just the very use of that term is trying to make it seem like their equivalent - if their patients sometimes die. But again, it's a non sequitur because it's missing the actual point, which is that… you know… there is a standard of care, and you cannot withhold that for whatever reason. Even when physicians are doing medical research you still can't withhold the standard… the minimal standard of care in order to study something. You know what I mean? You have to at least give what's already established.

?: So when I got into the whole skepticism thing… you know… you guys were talking about the logical fallacies, and I really didn't find … I didn't think it would be that important to me, because I wasn't really into it to get into debates with people about anything. But I found that logical fallacies are very important to know, especially to examine my own logic and thinking.

S: Uhmm … Yeah, I agree! It's very easy to slip into fallacious logic if you are not aware of all the pitfalls that you need to avoid, so that's why I think this is a critical exercise for anyone who wants to think critically.

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

Template:5X5 episode list

2012-10-20T23:54:12Z

Dasaratha:

<noinclude>This template is used to display the list of 5X5 episodes on the [[Main Page]] and the [[5X5 Episodes]] page. Additions and amendments to this template will be reflected on those pages.

For help on how to add a new row, see [[Template:5X5 list entry]].
</noinclude>

{|class="wikitable sortable" style="margin: 1em 3em;"
!No.!!class="unsortable"|Date!!Contents!!Categories
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 113
|date = May 9 2012
|contents = What's the Harm?
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
|category3 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 112
|date = May 2 2012
|contents = Anecdotal Evidence
|category1 =
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 111
|date = Apr 25 2012
|contents = Facilitated Communication
|category1 = Pseudoscience
|category2 = Myths & Misconceptions
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 110
|date = Apr 11 2012
|contents = Naturalistic Fallacy
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 109
|date = Apr 4 2012
|contents = Celebrity Pseudoscience
|category1 = Pseudoscience
|category2 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 108
|date = Mar 28 2012
|contents = Cancer Cure
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Conspiracy Theories
|category3 = Pseudoscience
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 107
|date = Mar 21 2012
|contents = Chilean UFO
|category1 = UFOs & Aliens
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 106
|date = Mar 19 2012
|contents = Availability Heuristic
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 105
|date = Mar 7 2012
|contents = Representativeness Heuristic
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 104
|date = Feb 22 2012
|contents = WiFi
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 103
|date = Feb 15 2012
|contents = Creationism
|category1 = Creationism & ID
|category2 = Science & Education
|category3 = Legal Issues & Regulations}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 101
|date = Jan 26 2011
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Slippery Slope/Post Hoc
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 100
|date = Jan 13 2011
|contents = Testable
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 99
|date = Jan 5 2011
|contents = Graphology
|category1 = History
|category2 = Pseudoscience
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 98
|date = Dec 30 2010
|contents = Harry Houdini
|category1 = History
|category2 = Paranormal
|category3 = Ghosts & Demons
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 97
|date = Dec 20 2010
|contents = Repressed Memories
|category1 = Neuroscience & Psychology
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 96
|date = Nov 9 2010
|contents = Magnets
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 95
|date = Sep 21 2010
|contents = Chelation
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Alternative Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 94
|date = Sep 12 2010
|contents = Nostradamus
|category1 = Prophecy
|category2 = History
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 93
|date = Aug 13 2010
|contents = Chiropractic - Part 3
|category1 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 92
|date = Jul 28 2010
|contents = Chiropractic - Part 2
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = History
|category3 = Legal Issues & Regulations
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 91
|date = Jul 13 2010
|contents = Chiropractic - Part 1
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = History
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 90
|date = Jun 29 2010
|contents = The Unification Church
|category1 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 83
|date = Dec 20 2009
|contents = Irreducible Complexity
|category1 = Creationism & ID
|category2 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 81
|date = Nov 18 2009
|contents = Naturopathy
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 80
|date = Oct 28 2009
|contents = Polygraphs
|category1 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 75
|date = Aug 12 2009
|contents = The Coriolis Effect
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 72
|date = Jul 16 2009
|contents = Randi Million Dollar Psychic Challenge and Connie Sonne
|category1 = Pseudoscience
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 68
|date = May 22 2009
|contents = Near Death Experiences
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 67
|date = Apr 30 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Special Pleading
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 65
|date = Apr 16 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Scientific Theory
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 62
|date = Mar 19 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - How to Argue
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 56
|date = Feb 4 2009
|contents = Probability
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 55
|date = Jan 28 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Poisoning the Well
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 54
|date = Jan 21 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - False Dichotomy
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 53
|status = verified
|date = Jan 13 2009
|contents = Anecdotal Evidence
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
|category3 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 52
|date = Jan 6 2009
|contents = Atlantis
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 50
|date = Dec 15 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - The Argument from Ignorance
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 49
|date = Dec 8 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Argument from Authority
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 48
|date = Dec 1 2008
|contents = The 10% Brain Myth
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 46
|date = Nov 18 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Correlation and Causation
|category1 = General Science
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 45
|date = Nov 11 2008
|contents = Chi and other forms of vitalism
|category1 = Energy Healing
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 43
|date = Oct 29 2008
|contents = Holocaust Denial
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = History

}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 38
|date = Sep 24 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Pareidolia
|category1 = Nature & Evolution
|category2 = Neuroscience & Psychology
|category3 = Paranormal
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 31
|date = Aug 4 2008
|contents = Digital Homeopathy 20 years after Benveniste
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 30
|date = Jul 29 2008
|contents = Evaluation of a UCONN study of therapeutic touch on bone cells in culture
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = New Age
|category3 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 28
|date = July 13 2008
|contents = Exposing the logical fallacy of equating faith healing with medical care.
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
|category2 = Pseudoscience
|category3 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 26
|date = June 29 2008
|contents = New study sheds light on genetic vs environmental contributions to sexuality.
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 25
|date = June 22 2008
|contents = NASA Plans Probe to the Sun.
|category1 = Astronomy & Space Science
|category2 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 24
|date = June 15 2008
|contents = New strategy for SETI - The Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence.
|category1 = Astronomy & Space Science
|category2 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 23
|date = June 08 2008
|contents = Lame car design analogy to intelligent design from the Discovery Institute.
|category1 = Creationism & ID
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
|category3 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 22
|date = June 01 2008
|contents = Researchers allow monkey to control robotic arm with its mind.
|category1 = Technology
|category2 = Neuroscience & Psychology
|category3 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 21
|date = May 25 2008
|contents = Family claims women miraculously brought back to life after rigor mortis
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Science & the Media
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 20
|date = May 18 2008
|contents = SPAM Chainletter e-mails do not spread as virally as thought
|category1 = Technology
|category2 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 19
|date = May 11 2008
|contents = The Science of Science Fiction Movies
|category1 = Entertainment
|category2 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 18
|date = May 4 2008
|contents = Man Regenerates Finger - Bad Science News Reporting
|category1 = Science & the Media
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 17
|date = Apr 27 2008
|contents = T-Rex proteins closely related to chickens
|category1 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 16
|date = Apr 20 2008
|contents = Surgery under hypnosis.
|category1 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 15
|date = Apr 13 2008
|contents = Examining a fossilized snake - with legs.
|category1 = Nature & Evolution
|category2 = Creationism & ID
|category3 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 14
|date = Apr 6 2008
|contents = Nomophobia - the fear of being out of cell phone range.
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 13
|date = Mar 30 2008
|contents = Man convicted of molestation claims he was raped by Bigfoot
|category1 = Cryptozoology
|category2 = Legal Issues & Regulations
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 12
|date = Mar 23 2008
|contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Energy Healing
|category3 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 11
|date = Mar 16 2008
|contents = Art project to give the city of Portland, Oregon acupuncture
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Energy Healing
|category3 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 10
|status = verified
|date = Mar 9 2008
|contents = Steven Spielberg to create new paranormal online community
|category1 = Paranormal
|category2 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 9
|status = verified
|date = Mar 2 2008
|contents = An Emmy award winning actress and her 911 conspiracy theory
|category1 = Conspiracy Theories
|category2 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 8
|status = verified
|date = Feb 23 2008
|contents = Cryptozoology - Hunting for the Thunderbird
|category1 = Cryptozoology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 7
|status = verified
|date = Feb 17 2008
|contents = Proposed center for exorcism in Poland
|category1 = Ghosts & Demons
|category2 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 6
|status = verified
|date = Feb 11 2008
|contents = Dr. Harris's Pain Relief Snake Oil Infomercial
|category1 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
|category2 = Alternative Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 5
|date = Feb 3 2008
|contents = Pope Benedict XVI takes on science
|category1 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 4
|date = Jan 28 2008
|contents = Do celebrity deaths come in threes? The rogues take on numerology
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Paranormal
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 3
|date = Jan 21 2008
|contents = Multilevel Marketing and Pyramid Schemes
|category1 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 2
|date = Jan 13 2008
|contents = Ghost Photographs
|category1 = Paranormal
|category2 = Ghosts & Demons
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 1
|date = Jan 6 2008
|contents = The National Health Service of the UK plans to regulate alternative medicine
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Pseudoscience
}}
|}

5X5 Episode 18

2012-10-18T17:58:44Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 editing required 
|proof-reading = y 
|formatting = y
|links = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}
{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 18
|Contents = Man Regenerates Finger - Bad Science News Reporting
|episodeDate = 4th May 2008
|previous = 17
|next = 19
|verified =
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=18
|forumLink =
|}}

== [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7354458.stm Man Regenerates Finger - Bad Science News Reporting] ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5 and today's topic is: man regrows missing finger. This is a report of a man Lee Spievak who reportedly cut off the end of one of his fingers. The injury actually occurred in 2005, and he was given a powder, so called "pixie dust" by his older brother who runs a biotech company called 'Acel' (?), and this is a powder made from the extra cellular matrix taken from pig bladders. They put this powder on the end of his finger and, by reports, the end of his finger regenerated or regrew. Of course, there are a lot of problems with this story as it is reported. The most important detail, of course, is how much of the actual finger was injured or was cut off, and how much of it actually regrew.

R: Yeah, if you look at the photos… the before photo has his finger, the angle of it is the finger pointing right at the camera?

S: That's right ! You're not seeing the nail bed, which is an important detail. But you can see that every joint is present. You can actually tell from the picture that no significant portion of the finger was actually cut off. It was just the very tip of the finger is injured, which contradicts the actual reports that are being given. The doctor who treated him who is a doctor Badylak, and the interviews with Spievak, with the patient, claims that more than the last joint was cut off. He indicated that somewhere in the middle joint of his finger was the piece that was cut off , completely below the nail bed, and that is simply not true. You can tell that by looking at the pictures, but if you take a quick glance at those pictures it is very deceptive. It makes it very difficult to tell how much of the finger was actually cut off.

E: And Steve, the original article on this quotes doctor Badylak as saying this: "I think that within 10 years we will have strategies that will regrow the bones and promote the growth of functional tissue around those bones, and that's a major step towards eventually doing the entire limb."

S: That may be true , but it has absolutely nothing to do with this specific case. This is a guy who cut his finger and it healed. This is perfectly normal healing. There was nothing unusual about this. There was no regeneration. There was nothing. I mean, maybe that powder formed a good bandage and allowed the finger to heal well. The ends of fingers sometimes can heal very very well all by themselves, so this is 0 new or unusual about this. All this talk in the media, spinning off of this story about regrowing limbs and what not… Sure , this is research that is ongoing, but this so called 'pixie dust' doesn't appear to do anything as far as we can tell from the evidence given so far.

E: Plus, the part of his finger that grew back which we're assuming is like what? The last eighth of an inch?

S: Something like that, yeah.

E: If you look at the picture of it after it grew back, the skin doesn't look brand new to me. I mean, it actually looks like the guy's hands are really worn and old. As a matter of fact, if you compare that to the earlier picture the guy's hand looks…

S: Mmmhim…

E: ...like a different piece of hand…

S: I don't know. The thing that you have to keep in mind is that this story is 2 years old, and that it has resurfaced. So the after picture could be 2 years later, in which case it wouldn't look like new skin, it would look perfectly normal. Which, of course, brings up the question of why did this story resurface 2 years down the road.

B: Well, for a little extra perspective, the most doctors I have ever seen in terms of regrowing digits is the … actually the full last digit of a child's small finger that has been seen. It was beyond the nail bed and it did grow naturally. It's believed that kids just have this natural ability that they lose soon after leaving childhood. No adult has ever shown that kind of regrowth in the finger ever, and it's believed it can't be done naturally.

J: So, Steve… what do you think is going on here? I mean, is there a sham involved?

S: What I think is going on here is just horrific news reporting. There may be a little self promotion going on on the part of the company. They've gotten 2 years of media out of this 1 story, this 1 dubious story. What happened, and Ben Goldacre writes very well on this, and he points out that when these type of stories come out recently, typically what's happening is that the journalist is a general journalist, they are not part of the science or health news reporting. The science reporters knew that this story was crap, that it smelled and they wouldn't touch it, and they told their editors this is BS, don't go with it. But the BBC correspondent to… you know… broke the story in this latest round, Matthew Price… you know… was gushing, was uncritical, was un-skeptical and is not a science or health reporter. He doesn't know what he's talking about and he didn't have the experience to realize that there was something very fishy about this story. And then to make matters worse, the BBC news when they reported it, they showed this animation of somebody's regrowing more than half of their finger… completely misleading animation tagged on to this story. And those same details that Price got wrong were uncritically propagated throughout the media. The same story was told over and over with the details shuffled around, and with nobody doing any actual science journalism to give the public a real understanding of what was going on. So they basically just completely misled the public on this story.

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

{{5X5 categories
|Bad Science reporting = y
Science & Media = y
}}

User talk:Teleuteskitty

2012-10-18T16:47:34Z

Dasaratha:

Thank you. Wasn't sure of topic for 5x5 100 - I put 'general science' but it's more scientific method or principles.

----

Thanks for fixing up my transcription :-) and for the warm welcome--[[User:jonaskoelker|jonaskoelker]] ([[User talk:jonaskoelker|talk]]) 13:43, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome :-) --[[User:Gugarte|Gugarte]] ([[User talk:Gugarte|talk]]) 04:37, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no clear idea of how to communicate with people on this platform, but I'm going to try this way and see what happens. If I get yelled at, then I'll get yelled at! Anyway...thank you for your help! I'm trying to wrap my head around how this whole wiki thing works. I only need you guys to have a little patience! :)
I will see if I can make myself read through all of the instructions.
Thanks again!

I really have no idea how to communicate on Wiki, but only this makes sense right now... thank you for helping me with SGU 5X5 #12! I am trying very hard do learn how to post these transcriptions.
Dasaratha

Also trued adding SGU 5X5 #18, but I have no idea how to create a new edit page for the this episode... could you please tell me what can I do?--[[User:Dasaratha|Dasaratha]] ([[User talk:Dasaratha|talk]])

I finally managed to figure it out :)))) Thank you very much for all your help! --[[User:Dasaratha|Dasaratha]] ([[User talk:Dasaratha|talk]])

5X5 Episode 18

2012-10-18T03:28:02Z

Dasaratha: Created page with "{{5X5 editing required  |proof-reading = y <!-- please only include when some transcription is pr..."

{{5X5 editing required 
|proof-reading = y 
|formatting = y
|links = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}
{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 18
|Contents = Man Regenerates Finger - Bad Science News Reporting
|episodeDate = 4th May 2008
|previous = 17
|next = 19
|verified =
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=18
|forumLink =
|}}

== [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7354458.stm Man Regenerates Finger - Bad Science News Reporting] ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5 and today's topic is: man regrows missing finger. This is a report of a man Lee Spievak who reportedly cut off the end of one of his fingers. The injury actually occurred in 2005, and he was given a powder, so called "pixie dust" by his older brother who runs a biotech company called 'Acel' (?), and this is a powder made from the extra cellular matrix taken from pig bladders. They put this powder on the end of his finger and, by reports, the end of his finger regenerated or regrew. Of course, there are a lot of problems with this story as it is reported. The most important detail, of course, is how much of the actual finger was injured or was cut off, and how much of it actually regrew.

R: Yeah, if you look at the photos… the before photo has his finger, the angle of it is the finger pointing right at the camera?

S: That's right ! You're not seeing the nail bed, which is an important detail. But you can see that every joint is present. You can actually tell from the picture that no significant portion of the finger was actually cut off. It was just the very tip of the finger is injured, which contradicts the actual reports that are being given. The doctor who treated him who is a doctor Badylak, and the interviews with Spievak, with the patient, claims that more than the last joint was cut off. He indicated that somewhere in the middle joint of his finger was the piece that was cut off , completely below the nail bed, and that is simply not true. You can tell that by looking at the pictures, but if you take a quick glance at those pictures it is very deceptive. It makes it very difficult to tell how much of the finger was actually cut off.

E: And Steve, the original article on this quotes doctor Badylak as saying this: "I think that within 10 years we will have strategies that will regrow the bones and promote the growth of functional tissue around those bones, and that's a major step towards eventually doing the entire limb."

S: That may be true , but it has absolutely nothing to do with this specific case. This is a guy who cut his finger and it healed. This is perfectly normal healing. There was nothing unusual about this. There was no regeneration. There was nothing. I mean, maybe that powder formed a good bandage and allowed the finger to heal well. The ends of fingers sometimes can heal very very well all by themselves, so this is 0 new or unusual about this. All this talk in the media, spinning off of this story about regrowing limbs and what not… Sure , this is research that is ongoing, but this so called 'pixie dust' doesn't appear to do anything as far as we can tell from the evidence given so far.

E: Plus, the part of his finger that grew back which we're assuming is like what? The last eighth of an inch?

S: Something like that, yeah.

E: If you look at the picture of it after it grew back, the skin doesn't look brand new to me. I mean, it actually looks like the guy's hands are really worn and old. As a matter of fact, if you compare that to the earlier picture the guy's hand looks…

S: Mmmhim…

E: ...like a different piece of hand…

S: I don't know. The thing that you have to keep in mind is that this story is 2 years old, and that it has resurfaced. So the after picture could be 2 years later, in which case it wouldn't look like new skin, it would look perfectly normal. Which, of course, brings up the question of why did this story resurface 2 years down the road.

B: Well, for a little extra perspective, the most doctors I have ever seen in terms of regrowing digits is the … actually the full last digit of a child's small finger that has been seen. It was beyond the nail bed and it did grow naturally. It's believed that kids just have this natural ability that they lose soon after leaving childhood. No adult has ever shown that kind of regrowth in the finger ever, and it's believed it can't be done naturally.

J: So, Steve… what do you think is going on here? I mean, is there a sham involved?

S: What I think is going on here is just horrific news reporting. There may be a little self promotion going on on the part of the company. They've gotten 2 years of media out of this 1 story, this 1 dubious story. What happened, and Ben Goldacre writes very well on this, and he points out that when these type of stories come out recently, typically what's happening is that the journalist is a general journalist, they are not part of the science or health news reporting. The science reporters knew that this story was crap, that it smelled and they wouldn't touch it, and they told their editors this is BS, don't go with it. But the BBC correspondent to… you know… broke the story in this latest round, Matthew Price… you know… was gushing, was uncritical, was un-skeptical and is not a science or health reporter. He doesn't know what he's talking about and he didn't have the experience to realize that there was something very fishy about this story. And then to make matters worse, the BBC news when they reported it, they showed this animation of somebody's regrowing more than half of their finger… completely misleading animation tagged on to this story. And those same details that Price got wrong were uncritically propagated throughout the media. The same story was told over and over with the details shuffled around, and with nobody doing any actual science journalism to give the public a real understanding of what was going on. So they basically just completely misled the public on this story.

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

{{5X5 categories
|Bad Science reporting = y
}}

Template:5X5 episode list

2012-10-18T03:27:13Z

Dasaratha:

<noinclude>This template is used to display the list of 5X5 episodes on the [[Main Page]] and the [[5X5 Episodes]] page. Additions and amendments to this template will be reflected on those pages.

For help on how to add a new row, see [[Template:5X5 list entry]].
</noinclude>

{|class="wikitable sortable" style="margin: 1em 3em;"
!No.!!class="unsortable"|Date!!Contents!!Categories
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 113
|date = May 9 2012
|contents = What's the Harm?
|category1 =
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 112
|date = May 2 2012
|contents = Anecdotal Evidence
|category1 =
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 111
|date = Apr 25 2012
|contents = Facilitated Communication
|category1 = Pseudoscience
|category2 = Myths & Misconceptions
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 110
|date = Apr 11 2012
|contents = Naturalistic Fallacy
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 109
|date = Apr 4 2012
|contents = Celebrity Pseudoscience
|category1 = Pseudoscience
|category2 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 108
|date = Mar 28 2012
|contents = Cancer Cure
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Conspiracy Theories
|category3 = Pseudoscience
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 107
|date = Mar 21 2012
|contents = Chilean UFO
|category1 = UFOs & Aliens
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 106
|date = Mar 19 2012
|contents = Availability Heuristic
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 105
|date = Mar 7 2012
|contents = Representativeness Heuristic
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 104
|date = Feb 22 2012
|contents = WiFi
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 103
|date = Feb 15 2012
|contents = Creationism
|category1 = Creationism & ID
|category2 = Science & Education
|category3 = Legal Issues & Regulations}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 101
|date = Jan 26 2011
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Slippery Slope/Post Hoc
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 100
|date = Jan 13 2011
|contents = Testable
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 99
|date = Jan 5 2011
|contents = Graphology
|category1 = History
|category2 = Pseudoscience
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 97
|date = Dec 20 2010
|contents = Repressed Memories
|category1 = Neuroscience & Psychology
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 96
|date = Nov 9 2010
|contents = Magnets
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 95
|date = Sep 21 2010
|contents = Chelation
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Alternative Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 94
|date = Sep 12 2010
|contents = Nostradamus
|category1 = Prophecy
|category2 = History
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 93
|date = Aug 13 2010
|contents = Chiropractic - Part 3
|category1 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 92
|date = Jul 28 2010
|contents = Chiropractic - Part 2
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = History
|category3 = Legal Issues & Regulations
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 91
|date = Jul 13 2010
|contents = Chiropractic - Part 1
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = History
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 90
|date = Jun 29 2010
|contents = The Unification Church
|category1 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 83
|date = Dec 20 2009
|contents = Irreducible Complexity
|category1 = Creationism & ID
|category2 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|incomplete = y
|episode = 81
|date = Nov 18 2009
|contents = Naturopathy
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 80
|date = Oct 28 2009
|contents = Polygraphs
|category1 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 72
|date = Jul 16 2009
|contents = Randi Million Dollar Psychic Challenge and Connie Sonne
|category1 = Pseudoscience
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 68
|date = May 22 2009
|contents = Near Death Experiences
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 67
|date = Apr 30 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Special Pleading
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 65
|date = Apr 16 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Scientific Theory
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 62
|date = Mar 19 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - How to Argue
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 56
|date = Feb 4 2009
|contents = Probability
|category1 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 55
|date = Jan 28 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Poisoning the Well
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 54
|date = Jan 21 2009
|contents = Skepticism 101 - False Dichotomy
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 53
|status = verified
|date = Jan 13 2009
|contents = Anecdotal Evidence
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
|category3 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 52
|date = Jan 6 2009
|contents = Atlantis
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 50
|date = Dec 15 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - The Argument from Ignorance
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 49
|date = Dec 8 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Argument from Authority
|category1 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 48
|date = Dec 1 2008
|contents = The 10% Brain Myth
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 46
|date = Nov 18 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Correlation and Causation
|category1 = General Science
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 45
|date = Nov 11 2008
|contents = Chi and other forms of vitalism
|category1 = Energy Healing
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 43
|date = Oct 29 2008
|contents = Holocaust Denial
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = History

}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 38
|date = Sep 24 2008
|contents = Skepticism 101 - Pareidolia
|category1 = Nature & Evolution
|category2 = Neuroscience & Psychology
|category3 = Paranormal
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 30
|date = Jul 29 2008
|contents = Evaluation of a UCONN study of therapeutic touch on bone cells in culture
|category1 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 23
|date = June 08 2008
|contents = Lame car design analogy to intelligent design from the Discovery Institute.
|category1 = Creationism & ID
|category2 = Logic & Philosophy
|category3 = Nature & Evolution
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 22
|date = June 01 2008
|contents = Researchers allow monkey to control robotic arm with its mind.
|category1 = Technology
|category2 = Neuroscience & Psychology
|category3 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 21
|date = May 25 2008
|contents = Family claims women miraculously brought back to life after rigor mortis
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Science & the Media
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 20
|date = May 18 2008
|contents = SPAM Chainletter e-mails do not spread as virally as thought
|category1 = Technology
|category2 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 19
|date = May 11 2008
|contents = The Science of Science Fiction Movies
|category1 = Entertainment
|category2 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 18
|date = May 4 2008
|contents = Man Regenerates Finger - Bad Science News Reporting
|category1 = Bad Science Reporting
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 16
|date = Apr 20 2008
|contents = Surgery under hypnosis.
|category1 = Science & Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = incomplete
|episode = 15
|date = Apr 13 2008
|contents = Examining a fossilized snake - with legs.
|category1 = Nature & Evolution
|category2 = Creationism & ID
|category3 = General Science
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 14
|date = Apr 6 2008
|contents = Nomophobia - the fear of being out of cell phone range.
|category1 = Science & Medicine
|category2 = Technology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 13
|date = Mar 30 2008
|contents = Man convicted of molestation claims he was raped by Bigfoot
|category1 = Cryptozoology
|category2 = Legal Issues & Regulations
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 12
|date = Mar 23 2008
|contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Energy Healing
|category3 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 11
|date = Mar 16 2008
|contents = Art project to give the city of Portland, Oregon acupuncture
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Energy Healing
|category3 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 10
|status = verified
|date = Mar 9 2008
|contents = Steven Spielberg to create new paranormal online community
|category1 = Paranormal
|category2 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 9
|status = verified
|date = Mar 2 2008
|contents = An Emmy award winning actress and her 911 conspiracy theory
|category1 = Conspiracy Theories
|category2 = Entertainment
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 8
|status = verified
|date = Feb 23 2008
|contents = Cryptozoology - Hunting for the Thunderbird
|category1 = Cryptozoology
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 7
|status = verified
|date = Feb 17 2008
|contents = Proposed center for exorcism in Poland
|category1 = Ghosts & Demons
|category2 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|episode = 6
|status = verified
|date = Feb 11 2008
|contents = Dr. Harris's Pain Relief Snake Oil Infomercial
|category1 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
|category2 = Alternative Medicine
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 5
|date = Feb 3 2008
|contents = Pope Benedict XVI takes on science
|category1 = Religion & Faith
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 4
|date = Jan 28 2008
|contents = Do celebrity deaths come in threes? The rogues take on numerology
|category1 = Myths & Misconceptions
|category2 = Paranormal
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 3
|date = Jan 21 2008
|contents = Multilevel Marketing and Pyramid Schemes
|category1 = Cons, Scams & Hoaxes
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 2
|date = Jan 13 2008
|contents = Ghost Photographs
|category1 = Paranormal
|category2 = Ghosts & Demons
}}
|-
{{5X5 list entry
|status = verified
|episode = 1
|date = Jan 6 2008
|contents = The National Health Service of the UK plans to regulate alternative medicine
|category1 = Alternative Medicine
|category2 = Pseudoscience
}}
|}

5X5 Episode 12

2012-10-18T03:15:06Z

Dasaratha:

User talk:Teleuteskitty

2012-10-18T02:58:56Z

Dasaratha:

5X5 Episode 12

2012-10-18T02:49:46Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 editing required
|proof-reading = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}
{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 12
|Contents = Faith-healing cults
|episodeDate = 23rd March 2008
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=12
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=9376.0
|}}
== Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect. ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5. The topic for this evening is the death of a 15-month-old Oregon City girl [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/madeline-neumann-11-year_n_93903.html Ava Worthington]. The 15-month-old girl was sick with pneumonia. Her parents, who were members of a local pentecostal cult called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Followers_of_Christ The Followers of Christ Church] believe in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing faith healing] and did not seek medical attention for their daughter, and as a result, unfortunately, the little girl did die. The parents are now under investigation because in 1999 a new law was passed in Oregon.. umm… removed some of the protections for parents who seek protection under their religious beliefs for this kind of medical neglect.

E: The Followers of Christ Church… this is nothing new to them… umm… unfortunately, they've been relying on faith healing for pretty much their entire existence, since late in the 19th or early 20th century. The followers believe in a literal translation of the scripture which states that the sick shall be anointed by elders and the faith will heal all. Death comes if its God's will - they believe. Child deaths have plagued this church for a long time; at least 21 of 78 children who have died at the Church since 1955…umm… likely could have been saved with routine medical care. This is all part of an ongoing series of reports and investigations into this… well, cult as far as I'm concerned, for quite a long time now.

J: Also, it started with one guy; his name is Walter White so called "fire and brimstone" preacher who brought the church to Oregon in the 30s. His followers believed that God appeared to this guy in a dream, and chose him to be the leader of their group.

S: His definitely a cult figure.

E: Absolutely!

R: It's pretty much how most religions start: angel appeared to me in a dream, told me I have God's blessing, blah blah blah, and it's sad though when it has this sort of result. You look at Christian scientists it's the same kind of thing where there's a focus on faith healing and God will heal us if it's meant to be. And because of that, we have for instance mumps outbreaks and measles outbreaks in Boston, and it affects the most innocent member of the family like the little kid who can't even make decisions for themselves.

S: Yeah, obviously, when you're trying to balance the freedom of religion and the rights of a parent over their children with the duty to protect a child and to give at least the basic necessities of life, it's a very thorny issue. But I think that there is a general consensus that children should not be neglected to the point of permanent harm or death, regardless of what the views of their parents are. The primary promoters in this country of the rights of parents to rely entirely upon faith healing are the Christian scientists and even in this… the recent Oregon law that was passed largely in reaction to this cult or this church… the Christian scientists mobilized and tried to prevent this new law from passing to weaken the protections for faith healing parents.

J: It's good to see that the states are starting to notice this and pass laws that are going to protect the children … but really, when does it step on freedom of speech or those people's rights to, you know, worship their religion? What do you guys think about that?

R: Well yeah, I mean we can never… it's a fine line and obviously I don't think that we should ever pass a law that infringes upon a person to make their own independent choice about what they believe in just as long as we protect the people who can't decide what they do or don't believe in. And that's the little kids, so any law that's gonna protect children without affecting someone's own personal belief and how they conduct themselves, I'm gonna be o.k. with. But it is definitely a fine line there.

S: But once kids are involved, let's then say it's a different story. I did come across, while researching for this piece, a group called [http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/ CHILD] which stands for Children's Health Care is a Legal Duty and they are a child advocacy group that try to act to have more of these Oregon type laws passed to protect children from medical neglect because their parents follow a faith healing belief system. This was started by Rita and Doug Swan who were in the Christian Science Church and their 15-month-old son Matthew died of an untreated meningitis because at the time they were believers and than later came to realize , you know, how misguided they were and are now, in his memory, trying to undo the damage that they did, started this group called CHILD. So hopefully this is the start of a trend and we're gonna see more laws in the direction of protecting children in cases like this.

E: And fully prosecuting the parents whose responsibility it is to make sure their children get the treatment they need.

S:That's right!

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

{{5X5 editing required 
|proof-reading = y 
|formatting = y
|links = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}
{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 18
|Contents = Man Regenerates Finger - Bad Science News Reporting
|episodeDate = 4th May 2008
|previous = 17
|next = 19
|verified =
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=18
|forumLink =
|}}

== [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7354458.stm Man Regenerates Finger - Bad Science News Reporting] ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5 and today's topic is: man regrows missing finger. This is a report of a man Lee Spievak who reportedly cut off the end of one of his fingers. The injury actually occurred in 2005, and he was given a powder, so called "pixie dust" by his older brother who runs a biotech company called 'Acel' (?), and this is a powder made from the extra cellular matrix taken from pig bladders. They put this powder on the end of his finger and, by reports, the end of his finger regenerated or regrew. Of course, there are a lot of problems with this story as it is reported. The most important detail, of course, is how much of the actual finger was injured or was cut off, and how much of it actually regrew.

R: Yeah, if you look at the photos… the before photo has his finger, the angle of it is the finger pointing right at the camera?

S: That's right ! You're not seeing the nail bed, which is an important detail. But you can see that every joint is present. You can actually tell from the picture that no significant portion of the finger was actually cut off. It was just the very tip of the finger is injured, which contradicts the actual reports that are being given. The doctor who treated him who is a doctor Badylak, and the interviews with Spievak, with the patient, claims that more than the last joint was cut off. He indicated that somewhere in the middle joint of his finger was the piece that was cut off , completely below the nail bed, and that is simply not true. You can tell that by looking at the pictures, but if you take a quick glance at those pictures it is very deceptive. It makes it very difficult to tell how much of the finger was actually cut off.

E: And Steve, the original article on this quotes doctor Badylak as saying this: "I think that within 10 years we will have strategies that will regrow the bones and promote the growth of functional tissue around those bones, and that's a major step towards eventually doing the entire limb."

S: That may be true , but it has absolutely nothing to do with this specific case. This is a guy who cut his finger and it healed. This is perfectly normal healing. There was nothing unusual about this. There was no regeneration. There was nothing. I mean, maybe that powder formed a good bandage and allowed the finger to heal well. The ends of fingers sometimes can heal very very well all by themselves, so this is 0 new or unusual about this. All this talk in the media, spinning off of this story about regrowing limbs and what not… Sure , this is research that is ongoing, but this so called 'pixie dust' doesn't appear to do anything as far as we can tell from the evidence given so far.

E: Plus, the part of his finger that grew back which we're assuming is like what? The last eighth of an inch?

S: Something like that, yeah.

E: If you look at the picture of it after it grew back, the skin doesn't look brand new to me. I mean, it actually looks like the guy's hands are really worn and old. As a matter of fact, if you compare that to the earlier picture the guy's hand looks…

S: Mmmhim…

E: ...like a different piece of hand…

S: I don't know. The thing that you have to keep in mind is that this story is 2 years old, and that it has resurfaced. So the after picture could be 2 years later, in which case it wouldn't look like new skin, it would look perfectly normal. Which, of course, brings up the question of why did this story resurface 2 years down the road.

B: Well, for a little extra perspective, the most doctors I have ever seen in terms of regrowing digits is the … actually the full last digit of a child's small finger that has been seen. It was beyond the nail bed and it did grow naturally. It's believed that kids just have this natural ability that they lose soon after leaving childhood. No adult has ever shown that kind of regrowth in the finger ever, and it's believed it can't be done naturally.

J: So, Steve… what do you think is going on here? I mean, is there a sham involved?

S: What I think is going on here is just horrific news reporting. There may be a little self promotion going on on the part of the company. They've gotten 2 years of media out of this 1 story, this 1 dubious story. What happened, and Ben Goldacre writes very well on this, and he points out that when these type of stories come out recently, typically what's happening is that the journalist is a general journalist, they are not part of the science or health news reporting. The science reporters knew that this story was crap, that it smelled and they wouldn't touch it, and they told their editors this is BS, don't go with it. But the BBC correspondent to… you know… broke the story in this latest round, Matthew Price… you know… was gushing, was uncritical, was un-skeptical and is not a science or health reporter. He doesn't know what he's talking about and he didn't have the experience to realize that there was something very fishy about this story. And then to make matters worse, the BBC news when they reported it, they showed this animation of somebody's regrowing more than half of their finger… completely misleading animation tagged on to this story. And those same details that Price got wrong were uncritically propagated throughout the media. The same story was told over and over with the details shuffled around, and with nobody doing any actual science journalism to give the public a real understanding of what was going on. So they basically just completely misled the public on this story.

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

{{5X5 categories
|Bad Science reporting = y
}}

5X5 Episode 12

2012-10-17T21:31:55Z

Dasaratha:

User talk:Teleuteskitty

2012-10-17T21:26:02Z

Dasaratha:

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T05:38:35Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 editing required
|transcription = y
|proof-reading = y 
|formatting = y
|links = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}
{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 2
|Contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect.
|episodeDate = 23rd March 2008
|verified =
|previous = 11
|next = 13
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=12
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=9376.0
|}}
== Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect. ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5. The topic for this evening is the death of a 15-month-old Oregon City girl [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/madeline-neumann-11-year_n_93903.html Ava Worthington]. The 15-month-old girl was sick with pneumonia. Her parents, who were members of a local pentecostal cult called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Followers_of_Christ The Followers of Christ Church] believe in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing faith healing] and did not seek medical attention for their daughter, and as a result, unfortunately, the little girl did die. The parents are now under investigation because in 1999 a new law was passed in Oregon.. umm… removed some of the protections for parents who seek protection under their religious beliefs for this kind of medical neglect.

E: The Followers of Christ Church… this is nothing new to them… umm… unfortunately, they've been relying on faith healing for pretty much their entire existence, since late in the 19th or early 20th century. The followers believe in a literal translation of the scripture which states that the sick shall be anointed by elders and the faith will heal all. Death comes if its God's will - they believe. Child deaths have plagued this church for a long time; at least 21 of 78 children who have died at the Church since 1955…umm… likely could have been saved with routine medical care. This is all part of an ongoing series of reports and investigations into this… well, cult as far as I'm concerned for quite a long time now.

J: Also, it started with one guy his name is Walter White so called "fire and brimstone" preacher who brought the church to Oregon in the 30s. His followers believed that God appeared to this guy in a dream and chose him to be the leader of their group.

S: His definitely a cult figure.

E: Absolutely!

R: It's pretty much how most religions start: angel appeared to me in a dream, told me I have God's blessing, blah blah blah, and it's sad though when it has this sort of result. You look at Christian scientists it's the same kind of thing where there's a focus on faith healing and God will heal us if it's meant to be. And because of that we have for instance mumps outbreaks and measles outbreaks in Boston, and it affects the most innocent member of the family like the little kid who can't even make decisions for themselves.

S: Yeah, obviously, when you're trying to balance the freedom of religion and the rights of a parent over their children with the duty to protect a child and to give at least the basic necessities of life, it's a very thorny issue. But I think that there is a general consensus that children should not be neglected to the point of permanent harm or death, regardless of what the views of their parents are. The primary promoters in this country of the rights of parents to rely entirely upon faith healing are the Christian scientists and even in this… the recent Oregon law that was passed largely in reaction to this cult or this church… the Christian scientists mobilized and tried to prevent this new law from passing to weaken the protections for faith healing parents.

J: It's good to see that the states are starting to notice this and pass laws that are going to protect the children … but really, when does it step on freedom of speech or those people's rights to, you know, worship their religion? What do you guys think about that?

R: Well yeah, I mean we can never… it's a fine line and obviously I don't think that we should ever pass a law that infringes upon a person to make their own independent choice about what they believe in just as long as we protect the people who can't decide what they do or don't believe in. And that's the little kids, so any law that's gonna protect children without affecting someone's own personal belief and how they conduct themselves, I'm gonna be o.k. with. But it is definitely a fine line there.

S: But once kids are involved, let's then say it's a different story. I did come across while researching for this piece a group called [http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/ CHILD] which stands for Children's Health Care is a Legal Duty and they are a child advocacy group that try to act to have more of these Oregon type laws passed to protect children from medical neglect because their parents follow a faith healing belief system. This was started by Rita and Doug Swan who were in the Christian Science Church and their 15-month-old son Matthew died of an untreated meningitis because at the time they were believers and than later came to realize , you know, how misguided they were and are now, in his memory, trying to undo the damage that they did, started this group called CHILD. So hopefully this is the start of a trend and we're gonna see more laws in the direction of protecting children in cases like this.

E: And fully prosecuting the parents whose responsibility it is to make sure their children get the treatment they need.

S:That's right!

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

{{username = Dasaratha}}

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T05:37:33Z

Dasaratha:

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T05:37:03Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 2
|Contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect.
|episodeDate = 23rd March 2008
|verified =
|previous = 11
|next = 13
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=12
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=9376.0
|}}
== Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect. ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5. The topic for this evening is the death of a 15-month-old Oregon City girl [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/madeline-neumann-11-year_n_93903.html Ava Worthington]. The 15-month-old girl was sick with pneumonia. Her parents, who were members of a local pentecostal cult called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Followers_of_Christ The Followers of Christ Church] believe in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing faith healing] and did not seek medical attention for their daughter, and as a result, unfortunately, the little girl did die. The parents are now under investigation because in 1999 a new law was passed in Oregon.. umm… removed some of the protections for parents who seek protection under their religious beliefs for this kind of medical neglect.

E: The Followers of Christ Church… this is nothing new to them… umm… unfortunately, they've been relying on faith healing for pretty much their entire existence, since late in the 19th or early 20th century. The followers believe in a literal translation of the scripture which states that the sick shall be anointed by elders and the faith will heal all. Death comes if its God's will - they believe. Child deaths have plagued this church for a long time; at least 21 of 78 children who have died at the Church since 1955…umm… likely could have been saved with routine medical care. This is all part of an ongoing series of reports and investigations into this… well, cult as far as I'm concerned for quite a long time now.

J: Also, it started with one guy his name is Walter White so called "fire and brimstone" preacher who brought the church to Oregon in the 30s. His followers believed that God appeared to this guy in a dream and chose him to be the leader of their group.

S: His definitely a cult figure.

E: Absolutely!

R: It's pretty much how most religions start: angel appeared to me in a dream, told me I have God's blessing, blah blah blah, and it's sad though when it has this sort of result. You look at Christian scientists it's the same kind of thing where there's a focus on faith healing and God will heal us if it's meant to be. And because of that we have for instance mumps outbreaks and measles outbreaks in Boston, and it affects the most innocent member of the family like the little kid who can't even make decisions for themselves.

S: Yeah, obviously, when you're trying to balance the freedom of religion and the rights of a parent over their children with the duty to protect a child and to give at least the basic necessities of life, it's a very thorny issue. But I think that there is a general consensus that children should not be neglected to the point of permanent harm or death, regardless of what the views of their parents are. The primary promoters in this country of the rights of parents to rely entirely upon faith healing are the Christian scientists and even in this… the recent Oregon law that was passed largely in reaction to this cult or this church… the Christian scientists mobilized and tried to prevent this new law from passing to weaken the protections for faith healing parents.

J: It's good to see that the states are starting to notice this and pass laws that are going to protect the children … but really, when does it step on freedom of speech or those people's rights to, you know, worship their religion? What do you guys think about that?

R: Well yeah, I mean we can never… it's a fine line and obviously I don't think that we should ever pass a law that infringes upon a person to make their own independent choice about what they believe in just as long as we protect the people who can't decide what they do or don't believe in. And that's the little kids, so any law that's gonna protect children without affecting someone's own personal belief and how they conduct themselves, I'm gonna be o.k. with. But it is definitely a fine line there.

S: But once kids are involved, let's then say it's a different story. I did come across while researching for this piece a group called [http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/ CHILD] which stands for Children's Health Care is a Legal Duty and they are a child advocacy group that try to act to have more of these Oregon type laws passed to protect children from medical neglect because their parents follow a faith healing belief system. This was started by Rita and Doug Swan who were in the Christian Science Church and their 15-month-old son Matthew died of an untreated meningitis because at the time they were believers and than later came to realize , you know, how misguided they were and are now, in his memory, trying to undo the damage that they did, started this group called CHILD. So hopefully this is the start of a trend and we're gonna see more laws in the direction of protecting children in cases like this.

E: And fully prosecuting the parents whose responsibility it is to make sure their children get the treatment they need.

S:That's right!

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

{{5X5 editing required
|transcription = y
|proof-reading = y 
|formatting = y
|links = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T04:52:38Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 editing required 

|formatting = y
|links = y
|categories = y
|redirect = y 
|}}
{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 2
|Contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect.
|episodeDate = 23rd March 2008
|verified =
|previous = 11
|next = 13
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=12
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=9376.0
|}}
== Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect. ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5. The topic for this evening is the death of a 15-month-old Oregon City girl [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/madeline-neumann-11-year_n_93903.html Ava Worthington]. The 15-month-old girl was sick with pneumonia. Her parents, who were members of a local pentecostal cult called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Followers_of_Christ The Followers of Christ Church] believe in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing faith healing] and did not seek medical attention for their daughter, and as a result, unfortunately, the little girl did die. The parents are now under investigation because in 1999 a new law was passed in Oregon.. umm… removed some of the protections for parents who seek protection under their religious beliefs for this kind of medical neglect.

E: The Followers of Christ Church… this is nothing new to them… umm… unfortunately, they've been relying on faith healing for pretty much their entire existence, since late in the 19th or early 20th century. The followers believe in a literal translation of the scripture which states that the sick shall be anointed by elders and the faith will heal all. Death comes if its God's will - they believe. Child deaths have plagued this church for a long time; at least 21 of 78 children who have died at the Church since 1955…umm… likely could have been saved with routine medical care. This is all part of an ongoing series of reports and investigations into this… well, cult as far as I'm concerned for quite a long time now.

J: Also, it started with one guy his name is Walter White so called "fire and brimstone" preacher who brought the church to Oregon in the 30s. His followers believed that God appeared to this guy in a dream and chose him to be the leader of their group.

S: His definitely a cult figure.

E: Absolutely!

R: It's pretty much how most religions start: angel appeared to me in a dream, told me I have God's blessing, blah blah blah, and it's sad though when it has this sort of result. You look at Christian scientists it's the same kind of thing where there's a focus on faith healing and God will heal us if it's meant to be. And because of that we have for instance mumps outbreaks and measles outbreaks in Boston, and it affects the most innocent member of the family like the little kid who can't even make decisions for themselves.

S: Yeah, obviously, when you're trying to balance the freedom of religion and the rights of a parent over their children with the duty to protect a child and to give at least the basic necessities of life, it's a very thorny issue. But I think that there is a general consensus that children should not be neglected to the point of permanent harm or death, regardless of what the views of their parents are. The primary promoters in this country of the rights of parents to rely entirely upon faith healing are the Christian scientists and even in this… the recent Oregon law that was passed largely in reaction to this cult or this church… the Christian scientists mobilized and tried to prevent this new law from passing to weaken the protections for faith healing parents.

J: It's good to see that the states are starting to notice this and pass laws that are going to protect the children … but really, when does it step on freedom of speech or those people's rights to, you know, worship their religion? What do you guys think about that?

R: Well yeah, I mean we can never… it's a fine line and obviously I don't think that we should ever pass a law that infringes upon a person to make their own independent choice about what they believe in just as long as we protect the people who can't decide what they do or don't believe in. And that's the little kids, so any law that's gonna protect children without affecting someone's own personal belief and how they conduct themselves, I'm gonna be o.k. with. But it is definitely a fine line there.

S: But once kids are involved, let's then say it's a different story. I did come across while researching for this piece a group called [http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/ CHILD] which stands for Children's Health Care is a Legal Duty and they are a child advocacy group that try to act to have more of these Oregon type laws passed to protect children from medical neglect because their parents follow a faith healing belief system. This was started by Rita and Doug Swan who were in the Christian Science Church and their 15-month-old son Matthew died of an untreated meningitis because at the time they were believers and than later came to realize , you know, how misguided they were and are now, in his memory, trying to undo the damage that they did, started this group called CHILD. So hopefully this is the start of a trend and we're gonna see more laws in the direction of protecting children in cases like this.

E: And fully prosecuting the parents whose responsibility it is to make sure their children get the treatment they need.

S:That's right!

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T04:50:14Z

Dasaratha:

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T04:49:41Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 editing required
|proof-reading = y
|categories = y
{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 2
|Contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect.
|episodeDate = 23rd March 2008
|verified =
|previous = 11
|next = 13
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=12
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=9376.0
|}}
== Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect. ==
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5. The topic for this evening is the death of a 15-month-old Oregon City girl [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/madeline-neumann-11-year_n_93903.html Ava Worthington]. The 15-month-old girl was sick with pneumonia. Her parents, who were members of a local pentecostal cult called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Followers_of_Christ The Followers of Christ Church] believe in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing faith healing] and did not seek medical attention for their daughter, and as a result, unfortunately, the little girl did die. The parents are now under investigation because in 1999 a new law was passed in Oregon.. umm… removed some of the protections for parents who seek protection under their religious beliefs for this kind of medical neglect.

E: The Followers of Christ Church… this is nothing new to them… umm… unfortunately, they've been relying on faith healing for pretty much their entire existence, since late in the 19th or early 20th century. The followers believe in a literal translation of the scripture which states that the sick shall be anointed by elders and the faith will heal all. Death comes if its God's will - they believe. Child deaths have plagued this church for a long time; at least 21 of 78 children who have died at the Church since 1955…umm… likely could have been saved with routine medical care. This is all part of an ongoing series of reports and investigations into this… well, cult as far as I'm concerned for quite a long time now.

J: Also, it started with one guy his name is Walter White so called "fire and brimstone" preacher who brought the church to Oregon in the 30s. His followers believed that God appeared to this guy in a dream and chose him to be the leader of their group.

S: His definitely a cult figure.

E: Absolutely!

R: It's pretty much how most religions start: angel appeared to me in a dream, told me I have God's blessing, blah blah blah, and it's sad though when it has this sort of result. You look at Christian scientists it's the same kind of thing where there's a focus on faith healing and God will heal us if it's meant to be. And because of that we have for instance mumps outbreaks and measles outbreaks in Boston, and it affects the most innocent member of the family like the little kid who can't even make decisions for themselves.

S: Yeah, obviously, when you're trying to balance the freedom of religion and the rights of a parent over their children with the duty to protect a child and to give at least the basic necessities of life, it's a very thorny issue. But I think that there is a general consensus that children should not be neglected to the point of permanent harm or death, regardless of what the views of their parents are. The primary promoters in this country of the rights of parents to rely entirely upon faith healing are the Christian scientists and even in this… the recent Oregon law that was passed largely in reaction to this cult or this church… the Christian scientists mobilized and tried to prevent this new law from passing to weaken the protections for faith healing parents.

J: It's good to see that the states are starting to notice this and pass laws that are going to protect the children … but really, when does it step on freedom of speech or those people's rights to, you know, worship their religion? What do you guys think about that?

R: Well yeah, I mean we can never… it's a fine line and obviously I don't think that we should ever pass a law that infringes upon a person to make their own independent choice about what they believe in just as long as we protect the people who can't decide what they do or don't believe in. And that's the little kids, so any law that's gonna protect children without affecting someone's own personal belief and how they conduct themselves, I'm gonna be o.k. with. But it is definitely a fine line there.

S: But once kids are involved, let's then say it's a different story. I did come across while researching for this piece a group called [http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/ CHILD] which stands for Children's Health Care is a Legal Duty and they are a child advocacy group that try to act to have more of these Oregon type laws passed to protect children from medical neglect because their parents follow a faith healing belief system. This was started by Rita and Doug Swan who were in the Christian Science Church and their 15-month-old son Matthew died of an untreated meningitis because at the time they were believers and than later came to realize , you know, how misguided they were and are now, in his memory, trying to undo the damage that they did, started this group called CHILD. So hopefully this is the start of a trend and we're gonna see more laws in the direction of protecting children in cases like this.

E: And fully prosecuting the parents whose responsibility it is to make sure their children get the treatment they need.

S:That's right!

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T04:45:09Z

Dasaratha:

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T04:44:42Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 2
|Contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect.
|episodeDate = 23rd March 2008
|verified =
|previous = 11
|next = 13
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=12
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=9376.0
|}}
== Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect. ==
-->{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5. The topic for this evening is the death of a 15-month-old Oregon City girl [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/madeline-neumann-11-year_n_93903.html Ava Worthington]. The 15-month-old girl was sick with pneumonia. Her parents, who were members of a local pentecostal cult called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Followers_of_Christ The Followers of Christ Church] believe in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing faith healing] and did not seek medical attention for their daughter, and as a result, unfortunately, the little girl did die. The parents are now under investigation because in 1999 a new law was passed in Oregon.. umm… removed some of the protections for parents who seek protection under their religious beliefs for this kind of medical neglect.

E: The Followers of Christ Church… this is nothing new to them… umm… unfortunately, they've been relying on faith healing for pretty much their entire existence, since late in the 19th or early 20th century. The followers believe in a literal translation of the scripture which states that the sick shall be anointed by elders and the faith will heal all. Death comes if its God's will - they believe. Child deaths have plagued this church for a long time; at least 21 of 78 children who have died at the Church since 1955…umm… likely could have been saved with routine medical care. This is all part of an ongoing series of reports and investigations into this… well, cult as far as I'm concerned for quite a long time now.

J: Also, it started with one guy his name is Walter White so called "fire and brimstone" preacher who brought the church to Oregon in the 30s. His followers believed that God appeared to this guy in a dream and chose him to be the leader of their group.

S: His definitely a cult figure.

E: Absolutely!

R: It's pretty much how most religions start: angel appeared to me in a dream, told me I have God's blessing, blah blah blah, and it's sad though when it has this sort of result. You look at Christian scientists it's the same kind of thing where there's a focus on faith healing and God will heal us if it's meant to be. And because of that we have for instance mumps outbreaks and measles outbreaks in Boston, and it affects the most innocent member of the family like the little kid who can't even make decisions for themselves.

S: Yeah, obviously, when you're trying to balance the freedom of religion and the rights of a parent over their children with the duty to protect a child and to give at least the basic necessities of life, it's a very thorny issue. But I think that there is a general consensus that children should not be neglected to the point of permanent harm or death, regardless of what the views of their parents are. The primary promoters in this country of the rights of parents to rely entirely upon faith healing are the Christian scientists and even in this… the recent Oregon law that was passed largely in reaction to this cult or this church… the Christian scientists mobilized and tried to prevent this new law from passing to weaken the protections for faith healing parents.

J: It's good to see that the states are starting to notice this and pass laws that are going to protect the children … but really, when does it step on freedom of speech or those people's rights to, you know, worship their religion? What do you guys think about that?

R: Well yeah, I mean we can never… it's a fine line and obviously I don't think that we should ever pass a law that infringes upon a person to make their own independent choice about what they believe in just as long as we protect the people who can't decide what they do or don't believe in. And that's the little kids, so any law that's gonna protect children without affecting someone's own personal belief and how they conduct themselves, I'm gonna be o.k. with. But it is definitely a fine line there.

S: But once kids are involved, let's then say it's a different story. I did come across while researching for this piece a group called [http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/ CHILD] which stands for Children's Health Care is a Legal Duty and they are a child advocacy group that try to act to have more of these Oregon type laws passed to protect children from medical neglect because their parents follow a faith healing belief system. This was started by Rita and Doug Swan who were in the Christian Science Church and their 15-month-old son Matthew died of an untreated meningitis because at the time they were believers and than later came to realize , you know, how misguided they were and are now, in his memory, trying to undo the damage that they did, started this group called CHILD. So hopefully this is the start of a trend and we're gonna see more laws in the direction of protecting children in cases like this.

E: And fully prosecuting the parents whose responsibility it is to make sure their children get the treatment they need.

S:That's right!

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T04:44:21Z

Dasaratha:

{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 2
|Contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect.
|episodeDate = 23rd March 2008
|verified =
|previous = 11
|next = 13
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=12
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=9376.0
|}}
== Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect. ==
-->
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5. The topic for this evening is the death of a 15-month-old Oregon City girl [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/madeline-neumann-11-year_n_93903.html Ava Worthington]. The 15-month-old girl was sick with pneumonia. Her parents, who were members of a local pentecostal cult called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Followers_of_Christ The Followers of Christ Church] believe in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing faith healing] and did not seek medical attention for their daughter, and as a result, unfortunately, the little girl did die. The parents are now under investigation because in 1999 a new law was passed in Oregon.. umm… removed some of the protections for parents who seek protection under their religious beliefs for this kind of medical neglect.

E: The Followers of Christ Church… this is nothing new to them… umm… unfortunately, they've been relying on faith healing for pretty much their entire existence, since late in the 19th or early 20th century. The followers believe in a literal translation of the scripture which states that the sick shall be anointed by elders and the faith will heal all. Death comes if its God's will - they believe. Child deaths have plagued this church for a long time; at least 21 of 78 children who have died at the Church since 1955…umm… likely could have been saved with routine medical care. This is all part of an ongoing series of reports and investigations into this… well, cult as far as I'm concerned for quite a long time now.

J: Also, it started with one guy his name is Walter White so called "fire and brimstone" preacher who brought the church to Oregon in the 30s. His followers believed that God appeared to this guy in a dream and chose him to be the leader of their group.

S: His definitely a cult figure.

E: Absolutely!

R: It's pretty much how most religions start: angel appeared to me in a dream, told me I have God's blessing, blah blah blah, and it's sad though when it has this sort of result. You look at Christian scientists it's the same kind of thing where there's a focus on faith healing and God will heal us if it's meant to be. And because of that we have for instance mumps outbreaks and measles outbreaks in Boston, and it affects the most innocent member of the family like the little kid who can't even make decisions for themselves.

S: Yeah, obviously, when you're trying to balance the freedom of religion and the rights of a parent over their children with the duty to protect a child and to give at least the basic necessities of life, it's a very thorny issue. But I think that there is a general consensus that children should not be neglected to the point of permanent harm or death, regardless of what the views of their parents are. The primary promoters in this country of the rights of parents to rely entirely upon faith healing are the Christian scientists and even in this… the recent Oregon law that was passed largely in reaction to this cult or this church… the Christian scientists mobilized and tried to prevent this new law from passing to weaken the protections for faith healing parents.

J: It's good to see that the states are starting to notice this and pass laws that are going to protect the children … but really, when does it step on freedom of speech or those people's rights to, you know, worship their religion? What do you guys think about that?

R: Well yeah, I mean we can never… it's a fine line and obviously I don't think that we should ever pass a law that infringes upon a person to make their own independent choice about what they believe in just as long as we protect the people who can't decide what they do or don't believe in. And that's the little kids, so any law that's gonna protect children without affecting someone's own personal belief and how they conduct themselves, I'm gonna be o.k. with. But it is definitely a fine line there.

S: But once kids are involved, let's then say it's a different story. I did come across while researching for this piece a group called [http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/ CHILD] which stands for Children's Health Care is a Legal Duty and they are a child advocacy group that try to act to have more of these Oregon type laws passed to protect children from medical neglect because their parents follow a faith healing belief system. This was started by Rita and Doug Swan who were in the Christian Science Church and their 15-month-old son Matthew died of an untreated meningitis because at the time they were believers and than later came to realize , you know, how misguided they were and are now, in his memory, trying to undo the damage that they did, started this group called CHILD. So hopefully this is the start of a trend and we're gonna see more laws in the direction of protecting children in cases like this.

E: And fully prosecuting the parents whose responsibility it is to make sure their children get the treatment they need.

S:That's right!

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}

5X5 Episodes

2012-10-17T04:32:30Z

Dasaratha: Faith healing

{{5X5 infobox
|episodeID = 5X5 Episode 2
|Contents = Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect.
|episodeDate = 23rd March 2008
|verified =
|previous = 11
|next = 13
|rebecca = y
|bob = y
|jay = y
|evan = y
|downloadLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=2
|notesLink = http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcastinfo.aspx?mid=2&pid=12
|forumLink = http://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=9376.0
|}}
== Faith-healing cult leads to child death from medical neglect. -->
{{5x5intro}}

S: This is the SGU 5X5. The topic for this evening is the death of a 15-month-old Oregon City girl [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/28/madeline-neumann-11-year_n_93903.html Ava Worthington]. The 15-month-old girl was sick with pneumonia. Her parents, who were members of a local pentecostal cult called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Followers_of_Christ The Followers of Christ Church] believe in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing faith healing] and did not seek medical attention for their daughter, and as a result, unfortunately, the little girl did die. The parents are now under investigation because in 1999 a new law was passed in Oregon.. umm… removed some of the protections for parents who seek protection under their religious beliefs for this kind of medical neglect.

E: The Followers of Christ Church… this is nothing new to them… umm… unfortunately, they've been relying on faith healing for pretty much their entire existence, since late in the 19th or early 20th century. The followers believe in a literal translation of the scripture which states that the sick shall be anointed by elders and the faith will heal all. Death comes if its God's will - they believe. Child deaths have plagued this church for a long time; at least 21 of 78 children who have died at the Church since 1955…umm… likely could have been saved with routine medical care. This is all part of an ongoing series of reports and investigations into this… well, cult as far as I'm concerned for quite a long time now.

J: Also, it started with one guy his name is Walter White so called "fire and brimstone" preacher who brought the church to Oregon in the 30s. His followers believed that God appeared to this guy in a dream and chose him to be the leader of their group.

S: His definitely a cult figure.

E: Absolutely!

R: It's pretty much how most religions start: angel appeared to me in a dream, told me I have God's blessing, blah blah blah, and it's sad though when it has this sort of result. You look at Christian scientists it's the same kind of thing where there's a focus on faith healing and God will heal us if it's meant to be. And because of that we have for instance mumps outbreaks and measles outbreaks in Boston, and it affects the most innocent member of the family like the little kid who can't even make decisions for themselves.

S: Yeah, obviously, when you're trying to balance the freedom of religion and the rights of a parent over their children with the duty to protect a child and to give at least the basic necessities of life, it's a very thorny issue. But I think that there is a general consensus that children should not be neglected to the point of permanent harm or death, regardless of what the views of their parents are. The primary promoters in this country of the rights of parents to rely entirely upon faith healing are the Christian scientists and even in this… the recent Oregon law that was passed largely in reaction to this cult or this church… the Christian scientists mobilized and tried to prevent this new law from passing to weaken the protections for faith healing parents.

J: It's good to see that the states are starting to notice this and pass laws that are going to protect the children … but really, when does it step on freedom of speech or those people's rights to, you know, worship their religion? What do you guys think about that?

R: Well yeah, I mean we can never… it's a fine line and obviously I don't think that we should ever pass a law that infringes upon a person to make their own independent choice about what they believe in just as long as we protect the people who can't decide what they do or don't believe in. And that's the little kids, so any law that's gonna protect children without affecting someone's own personal belief and how they conduct themselves, I'm gonna be o.k. with. But it is definitely a fine line there.

S: But once kids are involved, let's then say it's a different story. I did come across while researching for this piece a group called [http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/ CHILD] which stands for Children's Health Care is a Legal Duty and they are a child advocacy group that try to act to have more of these Oregon type laws passed to protect children from medical neglect because their parents follow a faith healing belief system. This was started by Rita and Doug Swan who were in the Christian Science Church and their 15-month-old son Matthew died of an untreated meningitis because at the time they were believers and than later came to realize , you know, how misguided they were and are now, in his memory, trying to undo the damage that they did, started this group called CHILD. So hopefully this is the start of a trend and we're gonna see more laws in the direction of protecting children in cases like this.

E: And fully prosecuting the parents whose responsibility it is to make sure their children get the treatment they need.

S:That's right!

{{5x5outro}}

{{5X5 Navigation}}